Rather upset.....

[Nightmare]

I helped make ZC almost six years ago to be a Zelda 1 remake. It rather distresses me to see that it's becoming more of a Zelda 3 remake these days. I really wish we could go back to some of our roots and finish the more Zelda-1 type of things (like standard Lv. 3 enemies and things). If this is to become a Z3 remake, I will probably start not supporting it because I personally like Zelda 1 and rather don't like Zelda 3 or OoT personally.

If you want to make a Z3 remake, then why don't you just stop ZC and create a whole different program?

Just my two cents.

-James

[Freedom]

So why can't it be both?
Everything is there to make your standard Z1 game, and you aren't forced to use any of the newer functions.

[Nightmare]

Freedom, I've been asking for things over years like for example, Lv. 3 Moblins that would take more hits, but not be for example, Octorocks on Crack. These type of Z1 enhancements are ignored and there's a lot more concentration on layers and other things. The only new Z1-style enemies I've really seen are the Super Darknuts and the Fire and Windrobes. Can't we expand this a little more?

I'm just tired of these things being ignored.

-James

[Dark Spawn]

Well they could also start importing stuff from LA, OoS, and OoA. They basically use the same engine as Zelda 1.

[Dart Zaidyer]

Most quest authors are more interested in pushing the envelope rather than doing a straight-forward Zelda 1 adventure. Many of the new features are intended to cater to that.

I think before any new features in the spirit of Zelda 1 are added, the classic features need to be tightened up. Restoring backwards functionality and improving the faithfulness to the original NES game are just as important as finishing up the new features in 2.11.

[ShadowTiger]

I've been asking for things over years like for example, Lv. 3 Moblins that would take more hits, but not be for example, Octorocks on Crack. These type of Z1 enhancements are ignored and there's a lot more concentration on layers and other things. The only new Z1-style enemies I've really seen are the Super Darknuts and the Fire and Windrobes. Can't we expand this a little more?What's the difference between new enemies and slightly upgraded enemies? The Super Darknut is more of a change than the L3 Moblin, isn't it? An Octorok on Crack is more of an upgrade than a Super Darknut is, isn't it?

Seriously, don't forget that if you don't want to, you just don't have to use these new features. To ask it to go back to its roots is to ask hundreds of aspiring quest developers to stop using their plasma blowtorches, ion laser drills, and hyper beam cutters, and take up a bone chisel and a rock hammer, and try to realize their questing dreams with those tools rather than what they already had.

Just don't use the new features, James. It's all right there. :shrug: Nothing's stopping you from making a 4th.qst if you want to.

[Freedom]

I've been the lone wolf crying in the night for a bug free version since 182, the only addition I've ask for is a few wav slots added and a way to set them to be screen specific, (like the sea sound) and I've never gotten either one, so you aren't alone.
Either gotta make do with what it is, or move on, what other choice is there.

[Nightmare]

What's the difference between new enemies and slightly upgraded enemies? The Super Darknut is more of a change than the L3 Moblin, isn't it? An Octorok on Crack is more of an upgrade than a Super Darknut is, isn't it?

Seriously, don't forget that if you don't want to, you just don't have to use these new features. To ask it to go back to its roots is to ask hundreds of aspiring quest developers to stop using their plasma blowtorches, ion laser drills, and hyper beam cutters, and take up a bone chisel and a rock hammer, and try to realize their questing dreams with those tools rather than what they already had.

Just don't use the new features, James. It's all right there. :shrug: Nothing's stopping you from making a 4th.qst if you want to.

I already abuse Super Darknuts and the new Wizzrobes. Demo EX reminds you?

I just want a bit more variety. I could make longer quests if we had more upgrades too.

I just feel limited at times Z1 style, and I don't care for the Z3 features moreso (I think the subscreen and maybe some extended items is all I've cared for so far)

So far, I find simple opening from the old one and saving it preserves most. Though backward compatibility would be nice. New Quest is pretty much the same as it's always been, same with the 1st, 2nd, AlphaDawg's 3rd, etc.

-James

[jovo]

whinety whine whee sniff sniff haa cough! are you buttholes serious? Zc seems like a good program and these programmers only try to make it better. Go make your own program if youre not happy.

[Questions]

Jovo that was blatantly rude. Nightmare just be patient. DN is taking priority on what most of the people want. After that I'm sure he'll start on some more low priority stuff. It's like the principle of supply and demand.

[Nightmare]

Jovo that was blatantly rude. Nightmare just be patient. DN is taking priority on what most of the people want. After that I'm sure he'll start on some more low priority stuff. It's like the principle of supply and demand.

I've been asking for this stuff for a good 4 years plus, since the end of the PM days.

-James

[Shoelace]

Well, even though you have a point, I'd rather have the new stuff that are doing now than L3 moblins. If it was still a Z1 thing with no new additions I wouldn't be making games on Zelda Classic. But I understand what you mean, however, not everyone's wishs are going to come true, since it is the devolpers that make the decisions. Just like you said for 4 years you were waiting for that, some people have been waiting for a bigger screen for just that long. I say the devlopers are doing the best they can to make the majority happy.

Edit: Also, if you look on the ZC discussion forum, there is a enemy poll thread. The devlopers are going to try to add some new enemies.

[Petoe]

Backwards compatibility is a big issue yes, but asking ZC to go back to its roots is just ridiculous. The Z3-ish and other new stuff that will be added make ZC tons better. But what's the mosat great thing about ZC is that you can still make those "basic 1st quest clones" as much as you will, but some of us want to create some new, fresh, kick-ass jawdropping stuff which is only possible with the new features.

About wanting something for years... heck, I've wanted and asked more shops to ZC for many years too but we've never gotten more and looks like we will not be getting more in a while. :(
But I'm still happy with what we got here and I'm not making new threads about it... (Hmm, maybe I should =P )

[Nightmare]

It wouldn't be too hard to add most likely.

What do you have to do?

Copy the code, have the enemy read C-Set 9, and add maybe an attack that adds 3 arrows, take off 2 Hearts for Lv. 3 Moblins, etc. etc.

Can't be TOO hard.

I just want to make an addendum to this thread:

A lot of people here did not play ZC when it first came out. There is a group of about 500 to 1000 players that do not prefer the Z3 stuff in Zelda Classic, period. Zelda Classic was intended as a Zelda 1 remake. Personally, I do not like Zelda 3 very much, I like a few options, but that's about it. There are other people who think like me or will go elsewhere for a Z3-style program. And a lot of these people play quests like New Quest and Demo EX and won't touch anything else because of these reasons. I can't speak for many of them, but a lot of them don't visit AGN, but still contact me personally because they played the old versions and will play my things. I will also admit that a lot of these players might have left AGN for other reasons too.

I speak for a lot of these people and I stick with ZC because I had a role in designing this. Who do you think put in the hours to get the first and second quests right? I know things change, but I think I have a right to speak out when the Z1 part is being neglected for the sheer fact I've been here forever. We're not being addressed at all.

My 2C, I'll be MKDS'ing later most likely.

-James

[Petoe]

It wouldn't be too hard to add most likely.

What do you have to do?

Copy the code, have the enemy read C-Set 9, and add maybe an attack that adds 3 arrows, take off 2 Hearts for Lv. 3 Moblins, etc. etc.

Can't be TOO hard.

I just want to make an addendum to this thread:


-James

Well with this part I have to agree. I mean, how hard can it be to add a simple enemy, or add more shops to the list? I don't know anything about programming, but I don't believe it could take more than 5 minutes or so. But with my luck I'm totally wrong of course... :)

[Dart Zaidyer]

Copy the code, have the enemy read C-Set 9, and add maybe an attack that adds 3 arrows, take off 2 Hearts for Lv. 3 Moblins, etc. etc.

Can't be TOO hard.Except for the completely random, unrelated bug it would create. It has literally gotten to that point, I think.

[Nightmare]

Except for the completely random, unrelated bug it would create. It has literally gotten to that point, I think.

If it's that bad why don't you throw a private beta my way to make sure that the enemies work fine. Then, the rest can do their job.

Once we add these, the Z1 people are happy forever.

-James

[jman2050]

I'm actually kind of curious as to how you expect the Z1 elements to be expanded. Everything Zelda 1 did ZC can do, tenfold. However, if you've got suggestions (besides the enemy complaint, which is being addressed), I'm sure DN and I would be happy to implement them.

[Nightmare]

I'll write the enemy list up tonight if it'll help.

-James

[Kingboo30]

I do agree with some things. I do like some of the newer features such as Room carry overs. (We needed that for AGES I tell you!) Layering was good but takes time to do. But I don't happen to like some of the people who judge directly off the screenshot and say "This quest is good, but the graphics are bad so it get a 2." Look at your quest. It's one of better classic ones around. (Demo ex. Although it was really a DX verison Demo quest Phantom Menace did, it takes alot to get remakes done correctly.)

Although I was a bit of a snot when I first joined and tried to beat it when I first started ZC. But I wouldn't want to see Dungeons with blank empty rooms with barely any puzzles. Add some detail but not completely blank.

[Nightmare]

I do agree with some things. I do like some of the newer features such as Room carry overs. (We needed that for AGES I tell you!) Layering was good but takes time to do. But I don't happen to like some of the people who judge directly off the screenshot and say "This quest is good, but the graphics are bad so it get a 2." Look at your quest. It's one of better classic ones around. (Demo ex. Although it was really a DX verison Demo quest Phantom Menace did, it takes alot to get remakes done correctly.)

Although I was a bit of a snot when I first joined and tried to beat it when I first started ZC. But I wouldn't want to see Dungeons with blank empty rooms with barely any puzzles. Add some detail but not completely blank.

Demo EX is a testament to how much time PM and I spent together. We tend to play the same way I think.

I'm working on another beta quest, I'll be around.

-James

[DarkDragon]

I actually agree with Nightmare about a lot of this. I wasn't around in the days of Phantom Menace, but was under the impression (and again, perhaps it was mistaken) that ZC was intended, first and foremost, to be a *perfect* remake of Zelda 1. Nowadays I've seen bug threads (sorry, I haven't taken the time to actually find an example, but I know they're out there) where someone mentions, "this behavior isn't the same as in the original Zelda," and everyone else will jump in and say, "who cares? The current behavior is reasonable, why go to the trouble to make a tiny change that noone will likely notice?" This kind of thinking disheartens me: yes, of course I want ZC to keep evolving, to keep accumulating new features, but first and foremost I want it to fulfill its original purpose, to be a perfect copy (or remake, or whatever you want to call it) of the classic NES game.

For those familiar with the modern DooMing scene, my complaints about ZC are identical to those I have about jDoom: what the Doomsday people are doing is cool and very flashy, but in my opinion they have become so tied up in abstracting away game elements and adding cute graphics that they have lost sight of The Point of what a port is suppose to be in the first place.
[/rant]

[*b*]

ZC stopped being a port when it included ZQuest, DarkDragon...

as for what Nightmare is saying, I partially agree. Zelda Classic is supposed to be Zelda 1 for the computer, hence the 'Classic'. however, if you're so upset about this, why did you not speak up sooner? why start complaining when a Z3 style subscreen and Link animation is implimented, instead of when animated tiles were implimented? now, I'm not saying that I dislike the improvements ZC has gotten over Z1. I love that aspect, but I do agree that a port of Z1 should be simply a port of Z1

in Nightmare's first post in this thread, he said there should be a program seperate from ZC, to handle the new stuff that's been added on top of Z1 (if that's not what you meant, Nightmare, please correct me). I think that is a fantastic idea. I'd love to see a program, with all the features of Z3 and on, that is not based off of Z1's engine (if Z1's engine still exists within ZC anymore, that is)

I think, if the developers are willing, that idea could be taken to extaordinary heights, allowing the diehard Z1 fans to make their own quests with the basic setup of Z1, and everyone else to make their own Zelda games based on the collective features of the more recent Zelda games

[Nicholas Steel]

just make two areas to download quests from. one for standard zelda 1 quests and the other for quests which use new features.

i am also aware that you can sort the quests by zc version but there is no way to tell whether the quest is a zelda 1 clone without first clicking the quest to see its description thus making it hard to find zelda 1 quest clones.

rectify the issue and then maybe nightmare and others will stop complaining.

(ps. im trying hard not to make it sound as tho your being annoying to the zc community in this thread but at the moment its a bit hard)

[DarkDragon]

ZC stopped being a port when it included ZQuest, DarkDragon...

As far as I'm concerned ZQuest is completely distinct from ZC... the former just happens to facilitate injecting user-created content into the latter. Nobody would claim Photoshop is part of the game because it can be used to draw tiles later used in custom quests; analogously ZQuest, though developed concurrently with ZC, has nothing to do with the actual game logic and how closely it parallels that of the Zelda 1 cartridge.

[Nightmare]

I guess the big problem is, there isn't enough "enhanced" Z1 support, while everything from Z3 is pretty much there.

-James

[Sir_Johnamus]

I like you James, your debates actually have points!
Here's an idea:
What if, when you started a new quest, it asked you what engine to use? For example, if you selected z1, it gave you only the stuff used in z1. Except for tiles.
If you selected z3, it would give all the stuff for z3. Except for tiles. And if you selected mixed, it gave you everything.
That's a great idea.

[ShadowTiger]

I guess the big problem is, there isn't enough "enhanced" Z1 support, while everything from Z3 is pretty much there.

-James
... *blinks* ...

I'm sorry, but if you ask me, it's exactly the opposite. At least from my standpoint. :shrug: The Z1 aspect of ZC is already 100% complete, as far as I know. The Z3 portion isn't even halfway finished.


Can you elaborate a lot, please?

[jman2050]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how to enhance the Z1 portion sans enemies. Until that happens, I'm not exactly sure how we can address that part.

[Nightmare]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how to enhance the Z1 portion sans enemies. Until that happens, I'm not exactly sure how we can address that part.

Well, the Z1 people haven't had an upgrade on their part in 4 years. Quite honestly, that's kinda rough.

We should get new enemies and a few new options here and there. Some do overlap (True Arrows work either way, it was actually pleasing to see that, but don't just limit it to the Z3 sub please)

I guess the best way to think of things is "How would this fit into the Z1 engine with minor improvements or enhancements without totally changing the game?" That's how to please the Z1 crowd. Example: True Arrows eliminate the Rupee requirement used because that was a cartridge limitation.

Z3 had a lot of different stuff to it and it's why object to it so much.

Anyway, I'll get to the enemies tomorrow.

-James

[*b*]

We should get new enemies and a few new options here and there. Some do overlap (True Arrows work either way, it was actually pleasing to see that, but don't just limit it to the Z3 sub please)

that's a fantastic idea in general, Nightmare

and, Nightmare, what do you define in ZC as Z1 or Z3? the way it sounds to me, is you're against the additions like slashing and 16 color palettes. a little clarification, please?

[Zeo]

You want Z1 style improvements?


Allright what about making Mazes able to span across more the one scrreen, or perhaps making there be able to be more then two items per screen. Or Make mazes work inthe dueguons, I haven't seen any maze dueguons....

Its not that Z1 is incomplete, its that the lImits haev been reached , and the only Extensions to them are Z3 extentions, the orignal Z1 style deosn't have many logial extentions to it.

Another good exmaple might be to make a rule /upgrade on the old Limitatation on blue candle. Make it able to fire 2 or 3 blasts instead one per screen, that would allow for more interating puzzles that the red Candle would bust.

Maybe make an upgrade for the magic wand too, its a pretty weak eapon wiht all the new enemies.

Jsut little things like that I think woul please some Z1 people. Personally thoughI'd rather see things like the Pegasus boots and the Ice rod and pushing frozen enemies on switches, ect :p

[Nightmare]

that's a fantastic idea in general, Nightmare

and, Nightmare, what do you define in ZC as Z1 or Z3? the way it sounds to me, is you're against the additions like slashing and 16 color palettes. a little clarification, please?

Slashing I am violently against. It breaks the Z1 mechanic of play. That should only be in a program for Z3 remake and higher.

Graphics upgrades, I'm not against very much. I think we should have the ability to upgrade our graphics, but still play Z1 style. New Quest 2 demonstrates that one.

The biggest no-no's and should've never been implemented IMO:

Slashing (Z3 style swords, save that for Z3 remakes)
Din's Fire
Farore's Wind (Z1 never had magic to begin with)
Naryu's Love

All have extreme potential to break the Z1 engine in half.

Things we could live with:

Hookshot (I made it classic style, this works)
Hammer (Darknut shields broken, a dream come true)
Flippers (believe this was left out for cart limitations the first time)
Super Bombs (and other item upgrades in general)
Magic Meter (if not abused and used for Z1-style items)
True Arrows (another cart limitation)

I have a love/hate relationship with layers. While they do have some potential, I'm still unsure if they really fit in.

If you're wondering where some of my opinions are on some things.

-James

[*b*]

Slashing I am violently against. It breaks the Z1 mechanic of play. That should only be in a program for Z3 remake and higher.

Graphics upgrades, I'm not against very much. I think we should have the ability to upgrade our graphics, but still play Z1 style. New Quest 2 demonstrates that one.

-James

so, you'd pretty much die if jumping was added? I think I understand, now. you want features based off of Z1, but not from the later games, which would include, but not limited to, slashing, picking up objects, and talk-to-able NPCs (people standing around a town, press A to start playing a string sort of thing), right?

[edit] you edited as I was replying

I see now. you don't like NEW things, but upgrades to what the original Zelda has? well, the good thing about that, is, all of those items that have been added are optional in ZC, like slashing, and the spell items

if all the enhancements like those were optional, as well as upgrades to what Z1 was lacking, would there be any problem? nobody is forcing you to make Link slash in a Z1 quest...

[Nightmare]

so, you'd pretty much die if jumping was added? I think I understand, now. you want features based off of Z1, but not from the later games, which would include, but not limited to, slashing, picking up objects, and talk-to-able NPCs (people standing around a town, press A to start playing a string sort of thing), right?

Pretty much. I think my edit tells all.

-James

[Freedom]

well....
you've gone and lost me.
If you don't want the new stuff, just don't use it.
Simple truth is, Zelda 1 was a great game but it got old years ago, and if that's all Zelda Classic had to offer, it would have got old years ago too.
Whatever doesn't progress, dies.

[Nicholas Steel]

how bout multiple mazes per screen? for instance when link moves through the first maze on the screen he'll end up scrolling to the left, right, up or down. but when he completes maze 2 he ends up scrolling a diiferent way to maze 1.

of course you dont have to do this type of maze in sequential order. (meaning you can choose which maze to complete)

this would i think greatly enhance dungeons and the like.

[DarkDragon]

?... I'm not a fan of mazes in general, and in my opinion mazes in a dungeon are even more useless/out of place.

[Sir_Johnamus]

Allright what about making Mazes able to span across more the one scrreen, or perhaps making there be able to be more then two items per screen. Or Make mazes work inthe dueguons, I haven't seen any maze dueguons....
I agree with that, but I am making a huge dungeon that is 90% mazes. Minus boss rooms and the triforce room.

Well, the Z1 people haven't had an upgrade on their part in 4 years. Quite honestly, that's kinda rough.
I think that the developers should go with making the z1 engine perfect, then moving on.

[ShadowTiger]

I'm sorry, James, but I seriously don't see the problem here. Pretty much ALL of these new features are optional. If you don't like the new enemies, don't put them into any screens. If you don't like the new items, don't give them out. If you don't like the new combos, don't use them. I really don't see why you're complaining if these would have no effect whatsoever on any quest of yours that you'd be designing. If the devs were forcing you to use these in all your quests, that'd be bad, but, .. they're not. They're just not.

ZC is fine as it is. If it isn't forcing you to use these changes, then why are you getting so tense about it?


Now, if you really wanted to see more upgrades to the Z1 Portion, (Which, I will say AGAIN, .. is complete. >:-\ ) you'd probably have to actually list all the changes you'd like so people who aren't thinking like you could see what you mean by "focus on the Z1 aspect."


The thing is, as I just said, the Z1 portion is complete. You can already design as many Z1 style quests as you'd like, with using none of the changes to ZC which have been made. If you want something new, you'd be upgrading and changing ZC again.


So, James list your big suggestions for Z1. :p I'll be sure to post any gripes I have about them, so we can balance things out and make it even for everyone.

[Shoelace]

I pretty much agree with Britannianhero4 here. You posted a post that had this: "The biggest no-no's and should've never been implemented". But you don't have to use them. I mean yes they should keep Z1 fans happy by doing your enemy request (and maybe more Z1 improvements), but it seems like you want them to stop putting the Z3 stuff in the program altogether. I think that is bull, because Z1 people don't have to use them in the first place. That is the whole point. Just like there are a lot of Z3 people out there that don't want all of the Z1 stuff. They can just add the new stuff. It is as simple as that.

[Nicholas Steel]

i think nightmare is afraid that the developers are going to forget about enhancing z1 and instead just keep adding new "features" which are useless in a z1 quest.

[Shoelace]

Yeah, I understand and I agree with him on that point. But it just seemed like he is totally against adding any Z3 quaitys to it. And that is what I am against. But yeah they should try to keep both happy. However, with a huge amount of people you never are going make everyone happy. :(

[Nicholas Steel]

if you want them to enhance z1 stuff start posting ideas and suggestion again... dont suggest removing stuff.

[Dark Nation]

I'm currently working on adding new, stronger, non-godlike (Death Knight, Magic Octorok) enemies.

So far, I've added:

Goriya 3 - Twice the stats of the Blue Goriya. He fires more often and the boomerang homes in on where Link was standing when it is fired (like Zora fireballs). The boomerang travels faster, too.

Leever 3 - Acts like the Red Leever. Starts 1 tile farther away than the red leever, but travels much faster. Also, only one appears on the screen at a time. Finally, it appears at random, so just when you think you've cleared a screen, BAM! a Leever 3 pop up behind you and makes a suicide run.

I'm trying to think of a few more enhancements to some of the other Z1 enemies other than just make them faster and increase their stats. Here are my other ideas:

Octorok 3 (currently in production): Moves a little faster than the fast octoroks (red or blue). Spits a spread of flames occasionally (like the Flame Gleeoks).

Octorok 4: Similar to Octorok 3 but spits enemy bombs (a new weapon class) that hurt Link regardless of the "Bombs Hurt Link" quest rule.

Land Zora: Like the Zora but appears on walkable land.

Moblin 3: Similar to a standard Moblin but will charge Link when he gets in the Moblin's Line of Sight (like a Rope does). However, once he reaches the same row or column where Link is (depending on if the Moblin is travelling vertically or horizontally), he will turn to face Link and throw a spear at Link which travels at twice the speed of a normal spear and does double the damage.

Tektite 3: Similar to a Blue Tektite but fires a fireball at Link at the height of his jump.

Ghini 3: Similar to to a Ghini 2 but moves a little faster and will poison Link on contact. A potion, fairy, or Triforce can cure this. Link takes gradual damage when poisoned. A Ghini 3 can appear from a Tombstone 2 or Tombstone BS 2.

Pol's Voice 2: Magic ears protect them from all weapons. Blow the whistle within 1 square of the Pol's Voice 2 to make them vulnerable to the Silver Arrow for a few seconds.

Gibdo 2: Immune to all weapons except for fire. After being hit with a healthy dose, changes into a Stalfos 3 (bandages burn away, I guess).

Lynel 3: Similar to a Blue Lynel but fires whenever Link is within the Line of Sight.

Peahat 2: Drops enemy bombs while flying.

Thoughts?

[Nicholas Steel]

all of those sound just so awesome... will these be in beta 7? and like these will totally change the way quest's feel when playing which to me is an absoloutely awesome thing.

what you have stated above for all the enemies should remain like what you said meaning dont change them cause someone whinges, as i think what they are are perfect additions to the zc universe.

cant wait for the next beta/official release

[ShadowTiger]

... ... *Melts a little bit inside* ... ...


Goriya 3 - Twice the stats of the Blue Goriya. He fires more often and the boomerang homes in on where Link was standing when it is fired (like Zora fireballs). The boomerang travels faster, too.You can still block the boomerangs though, right? This will be a very interesting enemy.


Leever 3 - Acts like the Red Leever. Starts 1 tile farther away than the red leever, but travels much faster. Also, only one appears on the screen at a time. Finally, it appears at random, so just when you think you've cleared a screen, BAM! a Leever 3 pop up behind you and makes a suicide run.Definitely very cool. iMHO, this is the most OoT-like enemy, reminding me of the Leevers from The Colossus desert. They'd rise, ram into you, then leave. If they miss you, they keep going. Dandy little things. :p They'd also appear out of nowhere. If you ask me, their name should/could be changed to Leever (OoT) rather than Leever 3, as Leever # implies it's a Z1 type enemy.


Octorok 3 (currently in production): Moves a little faster than the fast octoroks (red or blue). Spits a spread of flames occasionally (like the Flame Gleeoks).... ... Too dangerous. XD These will probably be places into fire temples as some sort of other enemy.


Octorok 4: Similar to Octorok 3 but spits enemy bombs (a new weapon class) that hurt Link regardless of the "Bombs Hurt Link" quest rule.They will probably have their graphics changed away from Octoroks, to snails, or something. We'll see.


Land Zora: Like the Zora but appears on walkable land.Sweet. Definitely sweet. I can tell these will have their graphics changed to Wizrobes very quickly. ;)


Moblin 3: Similar to a standard Moblin but will charge Link when he gets in the Moblin's Line of Sight (like a Rope does). However, once he reaches the same row or column where Link is (depending on if the Moblin is travelling vertically or horizontally), he will turn to face Link and throw a spear at Link which travels at twice the speed of a normal spear and does double the damage.Okay, a little bit of trouble here. When it sees you, it charges you. But ... when it sees you, it'll also throw arrows/spears at you. Interesting. So, it'll be both charging at you WHILE it throws spears at you?


Tektite 3: Similar to a Blue Tektite but fires a fireball at Link at the height of his jump.I'm definitely reminded of Z2 on this one. ... Yeah, that works. Very nice. :)


Ghini 3: Similar to to a Ghini 2 but moves a little faster and will poison Link on contact. A potion, fairy, or Triforce can cure this. Link takes gradual damage when poisoned. A Ghini 3 can appear from a Tombstone 2 or Tombstone BS 2.Poison? Well, maybe the poison could just last a temporary while. :shrug: Poison by nature is a very, very fearful thing. Maybe a quest rule to tell if it's permanent or temporary.


Pol's Voice 2: Magic ears protect them from all weapons. Blow the whistle within 1 square of the Pol's Voice 2 to make them vulnerable to the Silver Arrow for a few seconds.Trying to figure out a Non-Pols voice equivalent with such a vulnerability. ... Okay, ... my first though is, does it have to be a silver arrow? You'd think any arrow would do. IMHO, you'd also need vulnerable tiles and invulnerable tiles for it.


Gibdo 2: Immune to all weapons except for fire. After being hit with a healthy dose, changes into a Stalfos 3 (bandages burn away, I guess).Well, does it have to be a stalfos 3? :shrug: I mean, IMHO, you could have Gibdo 2 turn into a Stalfos 1, and not be immune to all weapons. A Gibdo 3 could turn into a Stalfos 2, but still be vulnerable to most other weapons, and the Gibdo 4 would become a Stalfos 3, AND be immune to every other weapon, because it's a "King" class enemy. It'd be the king mac daddy (lol!) of the other Gibdos. :p The one to go after to kill the rest of 'em, if such a thing were wanted.


Lynel 3: Similar to a Blue Lynel but fires whenever Link is within the Line of Sight.Creepy. ... Actually, these could be useful as Boss Attacks. :) VERY useful indeed! :kawaii:


Peahat 2: Drops enemy bombs while flying.... ALTTP, anyone? Not bad. :p

[Dark Nation]

You can still block the boomerangs though, right? This will be a very interesting enemy.Yes.



If you ask me, their name should/could be changed to Leever (OoT) rather than Leever 3, as Leever # implies it's a Z1 type enemy.That's entirely possible. Can you think of a better Z1 variation? I thought about one that fires at you occasionally while it's surfaced. Soft or like a moving Land Zora.



Okay, a little bit of trouble here. When it sees you, it charges you. But ... when it sees you, it'll also throw arrows/spears at you. Interesting. So, it'll be both charging at you WHILE it throws spears at you?No. Imagine that that's a Moblin 3 at the top of the screen. You are like 6 tiles down from and it 4 tiles to the left. You walk to the right, passing underneath it. As soon as you are lined up below it, it will charge downwards. You keep moving right, out of its path. As soon as it reaches the row you are on, it will turn to face you and throw a spear, then pick a direction at random and walk around, waiting a few clock ticks before it can charge again.



I'm definitely reminded of Z2 on this one. ... Yeah, that works. Very nice. :)You know, I honestly never though about that. But, yes, I guess it is very much like the ones from Z2.



Poison? Well, maybe the poison could just last a temporary while. :shrug: Poison by nature is a very, very fearful thing. Maybe a quest rule to tell if it's permanent or temporary.Yeah, a quest rule would be quite useful.



Trying to figure out a Non-Pols voice equivalent with such a vulnerability. ... Okay, ... my first though is, does it have to be a silver arrow? You'd think any arrow would do. IMHO, you'd also need vulnerable tiles and invulnerable tiles for it.I guess I could make two versions: One that is vulnerable to wooden arrows and another that's vulnerable to silver arrows. And, yes, there'd be a whole second set of tiles for it's vulnerable state (like having it's ears folded down due to the pain caused by the whistle).



Well, does it have to be a stalfos 3? :shrug: I mean, IMHO, you could have Gibdo 2 turn into a Stalfos 1, and not be immune to all weapons. A Gibdo 3 could turn into a Stalfos 2, but still be vulnerable to most other weapons, and the Gibdo 4 would become a Stalfos 3, AND be immune to every other weapon, because it's a "King" class enemy. It'd be the king mac daddy (lol!) of the other Gibdos. :p The one to go after to kill the rest of 'em, if such a thing were wanted.I suppose that could be a possibility. Thoughts?



Creepy. ... Actually, these could be useful as Boss Attacks. :) VERY useful indeed! :kawaii:To be honest, I don't really like this one that much. Anyone have any ideas for Lynel 3? I thought about a shield, but that's similar to a Darknut Death Knight, which would essentially make him a weak Death Knight, so a different class of enemy alltogether. Another idea I had was a magic cloak for him. Basically a reverse Darknut (vulnerable only from the front). So, you had to attack him from the dangerous end. Thoughts?



... ALTTP, anyone? Not bad. :pAgain, I honestly hadn't thought of that. Another idea I had was him firing at you while in the air, sort of like a childless Patra 2 that stops to rest a while and stops firing while doing so and is only vulnerable while resting. Again, thoughts?

[koopa]

Ok, here's my opinion:

I agree with all that said if you don't want to use non-Z1 features in your quest, you don't have to. I think most quest makers and players appreciate the extra items and features though, I certainly wouldn't want to miss the hammer or hookshot.

All these new enemies are getting me quite excited, and I think that is precisely the sort of feature that will make ZC even better. What I'd really like to see most is more LTTP-like features, specifically walking/running, and facing (shield!) one direction while moving another (with sword drawn).

The limitations of Z1 were, as said in this thread, partly cartridge limitations and now that we have today's faster hardware etc. it makes no sense to me to keep those limitations just because they make it more "original". 1st quest is still there and so is the option to create more Z1-style quests.

Indeed

ZC stopped being a port when it included ZQuest, DarkDragon...
that's one more thing that could never have been done on the original cartridge, yet ZC would be nothing like it is today without it.

To summarize my point, there's no reason not to implement features that weren't present in Z1.

[Shoelace]

My jaw opened up when I saw the list of enemies that you are making. Two thumbs way up. And now I am ready excited. :P

[vegeta1215]

I have the same opinion regarding ZC's evolution as Nightmare. I appreciate all the work DN and everyone else has done, but ZC has gotten too complicated for me to use, and despite having some cool new features (Wind Robe is genius!), I still prefer the simplicity of 1.84. Now that I think about it, I had this discussion with someone recently, but I can't remember with who.

Anyways, a "guy" editor and a simple enemy editor (to easily change the tiles/animation, HP, and weakness of an enemy) is something I've been looking forward to since PM mentioned them way back in 2000 - they could be considered Z1 enhancements. I don't think these features are in the latest alpha/beta...

[Nightmare]

Might want to make some of the items unblockable by regular shields, and also, make it that Manhandla 1 beams are blockable by the Mirror Shield.

Otherwise, looks good DN. If you want me to test let me know.

-James

[*b*]

Goriya 3 - Twice the stats of the Blue Goriya. He fires more often and the boomerang homes in on where Link was standing when it is fired (like Zora fireballs). The boomerang travels faster, too. sounds cool, but the faster boomerang might get to be a pain in the ass very quickly. maybe just have the range of the magic boomerang?

Leever 3 - Acts like the Red Leever. Starts 1 tile farther away than the red leever, but travels much faster. Also, only one appears on the screen at a time. Finally, it appears at random, so just when you think you've cleared a screen, BAM! a Leever 3 pop up behind you and makes a suicide run. sounds like those big Leevers from OoT. very nice

Octorok 3 (currently in production): Moves a little faster than the fast octoroks (red or blue). Spits a spread of flames occasionally (like the Flame Gleeoks). depending on how long the fire stays on screen, and where the Octorok shoots the fire, this could make for some very interesting battles

Octorok 4: Similar to Octorok 3 but spits enemy bombs (a new weapon class) that hurt Link regardless of the "Bombs Hurt Link" quest rule. awesome...

Land Zora: Like the Zora but appears on walkable land. another great enemy. I can see so many uses for this

Moblin 3: Similar to a standard Moblin but will charge Link when he gets in the Moblin's Line of Sight (like a Rope does). However, once he reaches the same row or column where Link is (depending on if the Moblin is travelling vertically or horizontally), he will turn to face Link and throw a spear at Link which travels at twice the speed of a normal spear and does double the damage. reminds me of OoT, only with throwable spears. I hope there will be a seperate sprite for the running *hinthint*

Tektite 3: Similar to a Blue Tektite but fires a fireball at Link at the height of his jump. raining death. always fun

Ghini 3: Similar to to a Ghini 2 but moves a little faster and will poison Link on contact. A potion, fairy, or Triforce can cure this. Link takes gradual damage when poisoned. A Ghini 3 can appear from a Tombstone 2 or Tombstone BS 2. POISON STATUS!? it would be more zelda-ish if Link were cursed, and unable to use weapons, but poison is good too. make a palette to replace Link's when he gets poisoned, or a little "sparkle" animation to appear over Link's head. hell, do both. should be quest rules, though, so either one is completley optional (if either suggestion is added, of course)

Pol's Voice 2: Magic ears protect them from all weapons. Blow the whistle within 1 square of the Pol's Voice 2 to make them vulnerable to the Silver Arrow for a few seconds. another enemy that should have another group of sprites, this time for when the enemy is vulnerable

Gibdo 2: Immune to all weapons except for fire. After being hit with a healthy dose, changes into a Stalfos 3 (bandages burn away, I guess). sweet

Lynel 3: Similar to a Blue Lynel but fires whenever Link is within the Line of Sight. see Gibdo 2's comment

Peahat 2: Drops enemy bombs while flying. see Gibdo 2's comment

Thoughts?

comments in bold

and, each enemy WILL have new tiles they use, right? it would be so boring to have all four Octorok types using the same tiles...

[Cloral]

Some of those sound like really great additions. Nice to see that in general they're not just the same as the older enemies but with bumped up stats.

[Nicholas Steel]

I'm currently working on adding new, stronger, non-godlike (Death Knight, Magic Octorok) enemies.

So far, I've added:

Goriya 3 - Twice the stats of the Blue Goriya. He fires more often and the boomerang homes in on where Link was standing when it is fired (like Zora fireballs). The boomerang travels faster, too. maybe make it a fire boomerang

Leever 3 - Acts like the Red Leever. Starts 1 tile farther away than the red leever, but travels much faster. Also, only one appears on the screen at a time. Finally, it appears at random, so just when you think you've cleared a screen, BAM! a Leever 3 pop up behind you and makes a suicide run. kewel

Octorok 3 (currently in production): Moves a little faster than the fast octoroks (red or blue). Spits a spread of flames occasionally (like the Flame Gleeoks). how healthy is it? is it equal in health compared to octorock on crack

Octorok 4: Similar to Octorok 3 but spits enemy bombs (a new weapon class) that hurt Link regardless of the "Bombs Hurt Link" quest rule. finally

Land Zora: Like the Zora but appears on walkable land. dunno

Moblin 3: Similar to a standard Moblin but will charge Link when he gets in the Moblin's Line of Sight (like a Rope does). However, once he reaches the same row or column where Link is (depending on if the Moblin is travelling vertically or horizontally), he will turn to face Link and throw a spear at Link which travels at twice the speed of a normal spear and does double the damage. now this is interesting

Tektite 3: Similar to a Blue Tektite but fires a fireball at Link at the height of his jump. add a tektite 4 which is the red variation of the tektite 3

Ghini 3: Similar to to a Ghini 2 but moves a little faster and will poison Link on contact. A potion, fairy, or Triforce can cure this. Link takes gradual damage when poisoned. A Ghini 3 can appear from a Tombstone 2 or Tombstone BS 2. make it hurt and act like a red bubble rather then poisen

Pol's Voice 2: Magic ears protect them from all weapons. Blow the whistle within 1 square of the Pol's Voice 2 to make them vulnerable to the Silver Arrow for a few seconds. finally another thing that needs silver arrows to beat

Gibdo 2: Immune to all weapons except for fire. After being hit with a healthy dose, changes into a Stalfos 3 (bandages burn away, I guess). great

Lynel 3: Similar to a Blue Lynel but fires whenever Link is within the Line of Sight. brilliant

Peahat 2: Drops enemy bombs while flying. gnarly

comments are in bold... you need an enemy thats weakness is only the gold arrows

[System Error]

DN, what happened to the create-an-enemy contest enemies? Just wondering if they're still being put in.

[Dark Nation]

Yes, they are. I haven't forgotten about the contest. I realized that Nightmare made a very good point and decided to work on enhancing Z1 enemies a little while I'm working on the contest winners.

[eXodus]

The way I see it, there are three groups in this debate: those who want Z1-destroying features completely displaced, those who want to go as far beyond the original Z1 engine without making pure Z1 quests impossible, and those who want to be able to customise everything to the point where quests like Z4 and even non Zelda-like quests are possible (which I count myself among).

If I'm reading right, Group 1's complaints are that the devs have mostly been focusing on features that are designed to break away from Z1 gameplay, and that not using them for purity's sake does not stop everyone else from only making anti-Z1 quests. The fact that the majority of people are trying to do everything they can to make the best quest that is nothing like Z1 is what I think these guys are so damn angry about.

The problem here is that almost everything that has been in popular demand has been to make ZC either more flexible, or (optionally) less Z1-like. The biggest things people want right now that are plausible in Z1 are proper multiwarps and the Enemy and Item Editors. Neither of those will arise any time soon, and they will surely push everyone further away from the Z1 port ZC was originally made as.

The solution is not to fork the code, as that will just lead to a shunned and rarely noticed PureZ1 version. The current goal of ZC is to give the Quest Maker the ability to choose what features they want out of each game (Z1 and Z3 only right now). By rights that should be expanded to things not possible in Zelda games as well. However, this is at odds with the people who think that Zelda Classic should always play like Z1 so that the original is never forgotten. I can understand their sentiment. But why should they desire to control what other people want to do with ZC?

Oh yeah, if I made any mistaken observations in there, point them out clearly.

[Nicholas Steel]

are some of the new enemies/features going to be in beta 7 or is it going to be a bug fix only release. at the moment i would prefer just a bug fix release.

[koopa]

Another issue I see is should the emphasis be on adding new features or on improving and debugging existing ones. (See vegeta's post above). It's a valid point that, say, a "simpler" and bug-purged zquest would add something to ZC. I'd personally like to see the larger zquest size (big or double) improved. In the same way I'm very pleased with the "dungeon carving" and "isometric" modes (this thread (http://www.armageddongames.net/showthread.php?t=87243&page=1&highlight=Relational)).

[ZTC]

Gibdo 2: Immune to all weapons except for fire. After being hit with a healthy dose, changes into a Stalfos 3 (bandages burn away, I guess).

that reminds me of the Gibodos from Link's Awakening; though, I think that a either a Stalfos 1 or 2 would work a bit better. Speaking of Stalfos, (it's been a while since I've worked with ZC, plz correct as necessary...), how about having an alternate one that can't be instantly killed with an arrow?

[Kairyu]

That's entirely possible. Can you think of a better Z1 variation? I thought about one that fires at you occasionally while it's surfaced. Soft or like a moving Land Zora.
How about it fires three fireballs that spread out, kinda like an Aquamentus? Or maybe three shots with a breif delay between each, so Link would need to keep moving to dodge the second and third shot.



No. Imagine that that's a Moblin 3 at the top of the screen. You are like 6 tiles down from and it 4 tiles to the left. You walk to the right, passing underneath it. As soon as you are lined up below it, it will charge downwards. You keep moving right, out of its path. As soon as it reaches the row you are on, it will turn to face you and throw a spear, then pick a direction at random and walk around, waiting a few clock ticks before it can charge again.
I think I get it: when it saw you, it'd run at you, then, if you moved away, once it reached your previous position it'd throw a spear at you?



I suppose that could be a possibility. Thoughts?
I'd say add a Gibdo that turned into a Lv. 2 Stalfos when burnt but which could be killed normally, and a Gibdo only hurt by fire which turned into a Lv. 3 Stalfos. Maybe a quest rule which would make normal Gibdos become Lv. 1 Stalfos when burnt.



To be honest, I don't really like this one that much. Anyone have any ideas for Lynel 3? I thought about a shield, but that's similar to a Darknut Death Knight, which would essentially make him a weak Death Knight, so a different class of enemy alltogether. Another idea I had was a magic cloak for him. Basically a reverse Darknut (vulnerable only from the front). So, you had to attack him from the dangerous end. Thoughts?
How about the swords they shoot become stationary fires for a few seconds when they hit Link or a wall? If Link hit the fires, he would take damage, so you'd need to be careful where you let him fire or you could trap yourself. Like the Magic Wand does with the Magic Book, except for an enemy.



Again, I honestly hadn't thought of that. Another idea I had was him firing at you while in the air, sort of like a childless Patra 2 that stops to rest a while and stops firing while doing so and is only vulnerable while resting. Again, thoughts?
I like the idea of dropping bombs better than fireball shooting, but I hate Peahats with a fury and a passion.

[Nightmare]

BTW, should put while at this, let's get the BS Aquamentus in there.

The way he works:

Starts off green:

First form, 3 magic sword hits, fires the usual 3 fireballs.
Second form, turns blue, fires 5 fireballs.
Third form, turns red, fires 5 Magic Shield-blockable fireballs.

And he should work Z1 and BS style.


If I'm reading right, Group 1's complaints are that the devs have mostly been focusing on features that are designed to break away from Z1 gameplay, and that not using them for purity's sake does not stop everyone else from only making anti-Z1 quests. The fact that the majority of people are trying to do everything they can to make the best quest that is nothing like Z1 is what I think these guys are so damn angry about.



If we go THAT far to the point where Z1 is disregarded, I think we should seriously consider a name change.

-James

[Dark Nation]

BTW, should put while at this, let's get the BS Aquamentus in there.

The way he works:

Starts off green:

First form, 3 magic sword hits, fires the usual 3 fireballs.
Second form, turns blue, fires 5 fireballs.
Third form, turns red, fires 5 Magic Shield-blockable fireballs.

And he should work Z1 and BS style.
-James

So, the fireballs in his first and second forms are unblockable by the magic shield? Also, it takes magic sword hits to make him change forms? So, 12 hits with the wooden sword?

[Kingboo30]

BTW, should put while at this, let's get the BS Aquamentus in there.

The way he works:

Starts off green:

First form, 3 magic sword hits, fires the usual 3 fireballs.
Second form, turns blue, fires 5 fireballs.
Third form, turns red, fires 5 Magic Shield-blockable fireballs.

And he should work Z1 and BS style.


-James

That can sound good for hard boss big boss with only the wooden sword :)

But shouldn't the last form have unblockable fireballs? Nice to see quite a bit of new enemies. We do need some more.

[Nightmare]

DN:

Second form, 5 fireballs, blockable with the magic shield
Third form, 5 fireballs, UNBLOCKABLE with the magic shield (a.k.a. Mirror Shield blocks and doesn't reflect back)

And mind throwing me the alpha with the new enemies? I would like to be the tester of them if possible.

Others:

He was the Lv. 7 boss for the BS Zelda game. He's intended to be a later boss, a.k.a. the Gleeok 2.

But I think he should be in there. While I'm a hardcore old-school graphics freak, he's very much usable in the old format.

-James

[*b*]

sounds like a majorly fun enemy. I can already imagine the possibilities

[KJAZZ]

Man, all these new enemies. So cool. I've often wanted some kinda upgrade for the Goriya and Leever. While we're on the subject of new enemies, is it too much to ask for an upgraded Like Like? ;) I suggested him nearly half a year ago, in this thread. (http://www.armageddongames.net/showthread.php?t=87307)

Not to say that these enemies aren't enough already. I'm very pleased to see new enemies. :D

EDIT: Oh, right. I forgot to ask you all something. With all these new enemies, are there currently any plans to abolish the current enemy tile system, and making it similiar to how you choose Link's tiles? I mean, we choose items and animations, and now Link in this way, so why not enemies? :shrug:

[System Error]

Actually, the projectiles fired by Aquametus BS during Phase 3 are unblockable with the Magic Shield. Speaking of which, it'd be wise to implement the "forgotten" enemies that have been eaglerly awaiting implementation for many years, now. You know what I mean: Floormasters, Boulders, Fire Dodongos, Ceilingmasters, etc.

[ZeldaLord]

I see what some people are saying here, many of the latest features just don't fit in to a normal Z1 enviroment, slashing and magic being good examples of that. Before any more major new features, what I think everyone would benefit from is the development a solid, bug-free engine, focussing on:

- Fixing major bugs which currently exist.

- Expanding on the more basic aspects of ZC, small things that could increase the variety of all kinds of quests. Examples include more shops, whistle warps, etc., new enemies, which DN has kindly added many of already :), and multiple tile warps. These would all improve what ZC could do, and would work in any context, not just in Z3-based quests, which seems to be the main criticism here.

- Not directly related, but sorting out some of the things which can make ZQuest irritating to use. I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds using 256 colors next to impossible, simply because of the size of the colors you have to click. There are many features and options that could be added to ZQ, which would improve usability. The ones that instantly come to mind are the tile and combo selection screens, where an option to remember the position of the cursor, and even the cset used, would come in extremely useful; along the same lines, being able to set up more than 1 combo at the same time would also be useful.

Although doubtlessly some of you will disagree, I've been thinking for some time that the developers need to concentrate on this before adding any more major new features. Just take a glance at either the public or beta bug forum, and it's quite clear that something should be done.

[Dark Nation]

Right now, I'm going through all of the current enemies and rewriting code to make them more generic (something that needs to be done in order to have customizeable guys/enemies). At the moment, each enemy has its own animation code even though most of the standard enemies are virtual clones of each other with different graphics and stats (octoroks, zols, gels, stalfos, moblins, etc.). I'm about halfway done with the conversion. Once that's done, I'll continue work on the new Z1-type enemies. Right now, there's only the new Goriya and Leever. Not really much to test yet.

[Dart Zaidyer]

This won't change the esoteric predictability of the enemies, will it? For instance, you can usually count on some types of enemies to move about in a certain pattern.
The easiest example of that are enemies who turn towards Link if he's on the same line. Goriyas do it occasionally, Darknuts usually do it, Ropes always do it, etc...

[*b*]

Right now, I'm going through all of the current enemies and rewriting code to make them more generic (something that needs to be done in order to have customizeable guys/enemies).
don't toy with me. are you actually planning to make an enemy editor? please, PLEASE tell me you are

[ZeldaLord]

Right now, I'm going through all of the current enemies and rewriting code to make them more generic (something that needs to be done in order to have customizeable guys/enemies).

In which case, would you consider giving enemies a less restrictive movement grid, like you have with Link? Of course, the current enemies don't have to utilize it, but it would certainly pave the way for new types of enemies.