Annoyingly Hard...

[ThiefKorin]

So far, i've come across some quests that are annoyingly hard. they either throw masses of NPCs at you at one time with fireballs coming in from all directions or have those much-needed items strewn so far apart, and so well-hidden its like having an easter egg hunt with satan hiding the eggs.

my question... Why? Are your quests so crappily made, and so short, that you must destroy all meaning of "fun" in the game? Maybe im wrong, maybe just ranting, but some of my rant holds true to some quests.

*end rant here*

[Pineconn]

No, you're correct. I agree completely. Quest designers need to realize three things:

1) We don't know what we're doing because we didn't design it! Designers need to realize that his or she is the best person at his or her quest. People are going to wander around dungeons not knowing what to do. Expect them to, so dumb down the difficulty level.

2) We can't asterisk through the game! Designers should never get into the habit of, "I'll just enter my cheat code and press "*" to refill my life meter whenever I'm beeping..." We can't do that! The most we can do is with 2 potions, but you need to realize that we won't go to buy potions every time we use them. That's just time-consuming and frustrating.

3) Don't make the bosses/enemies ridiculous! People love throwing in Darknuts in Level 1 and Wizzrobes super early as well. Red Wizzrobe magic does 4 hearts (if I'm not mistaken), and Darknuts are annoying quite early on. I'm not telling you to never use Darknuts in Level 1 or Wizzrobes in Level 2, but don't overdo it. Don't make the boss of Level 2 a Manhandla 2 or Gleeok! That is very annoying since you'll have the Wooden Sword, no ring, and few hearts. Start bosses as a Gohma, Aquamentus, or one or two Dodongos.

Start quests off easy. Make them hard later. Just balance the difficulty.

[rocksfan13]

I totally agree.
I build my quest just as that. Easy to start. Then harden as you progress. Not making it too hard to find the next step.

[Freedom]

My quests aren't that hard.
Most people that start them, finish them.

[oceansoul22]

Yeah because the comment was targeted at you Freedom??? :odd:

[Freedom]

I was just stating a fact, mine aren't hard.
nightmare's are hard

[LinkMaster500]

Actually, the Red Wizzrobes are not that hard--especially if you have the Magic Shield. Just stay out of their lines of fire and deflect their shots. Red Darknuts are not too bad early on especially with the White Sword because only two hits kill them. Of course, stay away from the blue ones of these enemies until later levels.

It's a good idea to test your quest to make sure you didn't make it too hard or too easy. You don't want it to be so hard that not even the best Zelda Classic players in the world can beat it, and you don't want it too easy that people won't enjoy it unless they're total newbies to ZC.

Also keep in mind that potions, rings, sword upgrades, and certain items can make certain battles easier than they could be. For instance, with the Fire Boomerang or the Hookshot, the higher-level Darknuts are much easier because you can freeze them.

[Petoe]

Well... usually inexperienced questmakers tend to make a bit too hard quests. I mean, hard quests are ok, but when they are hard only because the quests have been badly built, then it's a problem.

I think I'm one of those who made his very first quest a bit too tough. But for the next quest I "hired" a big testing team and after polishing the quest to its finest I think the difficulty is just as it should: Very challenging, but not so hard that only super skillful players can defeat it.

[ShadowTiger]

A piece of personal Schadenfreude lies in the occasion in which a n00b quest designer tries to make a truly smashing quest, and thinks that people will really try to go all out to kill the death knight in the big, open square "arena" room full of brown floor tiles with nothing but a wooden sword... ... It really teaches people something. Seperates the men from the boys. If you're going to really design something cool, you would have started already. Don't make your players want to stop playing the quest because they can't do something. That's just stupid.


Only do something difficult if you think the player can handle it. It's one thing to make the player pass a particularly difficult area, but it's another to make them tear out their hair in frustration.

[LinkMaster500]

Of course, making a player kill Death Knights with the Wooden Sword is definitely overkill--especially when you have to hit them 30 times. And some enemies belong in the late stages of a quest like the Level 2 Gleeoks, Level 2 and 3 Patras and Death Knights--when Link has lots of Heart Containers, the Magic or Master Sword, or the best Rings.

So as far as difficulty goes, you don't want to make it next-to-impossible to beat your quest, but it should be beatable.

[DarkFlameWolf]

I am going to go out on a limb and say my quests (most of them) are probably in the difficult realm. I do not cheat when I test my quests, but I do measure the difficulty by how many times I die or need to use potions. I like a great level of difficulty and people come to my quests for that challenge. But none of my quests are impossible to beat, I made sure of that and countless of players who played them can attest to that. Its tough, but reasonable balanced. (with the exception of hidden duality xtreme, but let's not go there)
The only exception to the rule in my quests is most usually the Master Dome, I intentionally make it mind-numblingly frustrating because its built with the crazy-@$$ skilled Zelda player in mind. For those die-hards who want a real challenge in each of my quests. Thankfully its optional to everyone else so it never becomes an issue. That's my 2 cents.

[SpacemanDan]

Don't make the boss of Level 2 a Manhandla 2 or Gleeok!

I personally think that the Gleeok is a great 2nd boss, as long as it's only ONE head. Each fireball may do 1 entire heart, but if you make potions and alot of heart peices (or containers if you're not using HPs.) avalaible near the start, it won't be as bad.
(BTW: Kinda a stupid question, but I can't remember what a Manhandla is.)

However, I have found my those annoying points. I was fighting a 2 headed Gleeok 2 which is hard, even with potions, a good sword, the mirror shield and a good ring.
It's nice to have a difficult quest, (Ex: Demo Ex, wow was that HARD!!!) as long as it' beatable, and has acsess to half-decent items, like the hammer, the swords, rings, shields ect...

[Mad Steve]

Definition of Manhandla and Manhandla 2, according to the Mad Steve Dictionary of Zelda Wildlife:

Manhandla (noun) -- Boss of Level 3 in the classic First Quest. A big, four-headed plant thing that floats around the room, shoots fireballs, requires four Wooden Sword hits to one head to lose that head, speeds up each time it loses a head, and can be instantly killed by a single well-placed bomb.

Manhandla 2 (noun) -- See Manhandla, except with twice as many heads. Never appeared in original Zelda. Still dies instantly to a particularly well-placed bomb, assuming its shifting flight pattern ends up taking all of its heads over the explosion.

[ShadowTiger]

Actually, the Manhandla isn't all that difficult of a boss, -IF- you have any sort of bomb, or a meager to ample supply of arrows. Technically, you only need either 8 arrows, or one bomb to dispatch a regular Manhandla. Any bomb explosion will -kill- a Manhandla head, even if the manhandla simply ventures into the explosion on its own, without the bomb having been placed onto it. (Bombs are awesome like that. :D XD ) So just carefully place the bomb, and you're set. :shrug: Of course, if you do wish to take this into consideration and place a manhandla somewhere where you use bombs to defeat it, obviously, make sure that you give the player enough bombs. Either let them buy them somewhere, or place plenty of Red Darknuts, Blue Octoroks, Black Moblins, or Red Goriyas. Those guys drop quite a few bombs.

[TheWanderer]

I never really found Manhandla or 3 Dodongos to be all that hard of bosses considering you know how to use bombs correctly.

[DarkFlameWolf]

yeah, just smack a windrobe as a level 1 boss and a couple mirrors, that'll get people pissed.

[VI3T_DR@GON]

Oooo good idea...I aughta use that....(but a red wizrobe)

[Pineconn]

yeah, just smack a windrobe as a level 1 boss and a couple mirrors, that'll get people pissed.

That would be excellent if it would work. :) A Windrobe's whirlwind doesn't reflect. :D

[Nimono]

Is a huge group of Blue Darknuts a bad boss when you have the Hammer? (I know this- Hit a Red Darknut with the Hammer and it's destroyed. Blue Darknuts take 2 hammer hits a piece.)

[TheWanderer]

A deathknight with a white sword would make a good boss. Thats like what 15 hits.

[erm2003]

A deathknight with a white sword would make a good boss. Thats like what 15 hits.

Well, add that to the fact when you get hit by the death knight it will sap almost ALL of your life. Especially since I am sure if someone only had the white sword they would be lucky if they had the blue ring by that point, not even considering they won't have many hearts yet either.

[TheWanderer]

Oh I never fought one. I didn't know they did that much damage.

[ShadowTiger]

Yeah. Essentially, they're just designed to kill you. They're not designed to be CHALLENGING, they're designed to KILL YOU. ... ... Okay? :p They're literally suicide machines.

[TheWanderer]

What about the hammer? That has no effect on them?

[DarkFlameWolf]

did I say windrobe? my bad, I meant mirrorrobe.

[4matsy]

I've always found 10 Patra 3's to be the hardest boss fight, myself. :p

[DarkFlameWolf]

well, we're just talking about players who aren't God. :P

[Pineconn]

did I say windrobe? my bad, I meant mirrorrobe.

Ooh, now THERE is a boss! :scared: That should bring the death count up to 25, no? As a matter of fact... That could fit well in my mini-dungeon for LttH I'm making now...

:evil: :evil:

[DarkFlameWolf]

If you want a good example of how one mirrorrobe could make a good boss, check out Level B in Isle of the Winds, because that's exactly what I used! And with no mirror shield to help you to boot!

[VI3T_DR@GON]

Wow DFW...thats a purty hard boss you got there! But its sweet when you finally kill it.

[Pineconn]

If you want a good example of how one mirrorrobe could make a good boss, check out Level B in Isle of the Winds, because that's exactly what I used! And with no mirror shield to help you to boot!

Yup, I remember that one. :scared: "You must defeat a Mirror Wizzrobe to get the Mirror Shield." I just finally said 'screw it' and used the wand's magic to kill it. I got tired of waiting (dying) for it to attack me and get its magic caught in the mirrors... :D