Jack Thompson's very own video game!

[goKi]

Suprised noone has posted this yet. Seems he's at it again, trying to see if a video game company will make an extremely violent game that targets themselves, although, rather than pay for the development cost of the game, he'll donate a measly $10,000 to charity. Fuck, it would be awesome if a developer made this game, but released a 'hot coffee' style official patch for it that involved the brutal torture and murder of Jack Thompson. Just wait until he donates the money first. But in reality, noone is going to spend several million developing a game, for a $10,000 donation to charity. :\

http://gc.advancedmn.com/article.php?artid=5883



Attorney Proposes Violent Game

October 10, 2005

by: Matt Saunderson

Jack Thompson will give $10,000 to charity if any videogame company makes and releases a game based on a scenario he created.
Miami, Florida Attorney Jack Thompson, a long-time outspoken critic of violent and sexually explicit videogames, has done something totally unexpected. Thompson today actually proposed a violent videogame, and will pay $10,000 to the favorite charity of Paul Eibeler (the Chairman of Take-Two Interactive) if any videogame company will "create, manufacture, distribute, and sell a video game in 2006" based on a scenario he created.

Thompson's proposal is titled A Modest Video Game Proposal and has been sent to members of the press and apparantly to Douglas Lowenstein, President of the ESA.

Here's Thompson's proposal (italics are his, not ours):

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The Golden Rule

This writer has been saying for seven years that violent video games can be "murder simulators" that incite as well as train some obsessive teen players to be violent.

I've been on 60 Minutes and in Reader's Digest this year explaining how an Alabama teen, with no criminal record, shot two policemen and a dispatcher in their heads and fled in a police car--a scenario he rehearsed for hundreds of hours on Take-Two/Rockstar's Grand Theft Auto video games.

I have sat with boys in jail cells, their lives over because of murder convictions, after they, with no history of violence, have killed innocents while in a dreamlike state. Said one cop who investigated such a murder in Grand Rapids, Michigan: "The killing was like an extension of the game."

The video game industry, through its lawyers, its spokesmen, and its head lobbyist, Doug Lowenstein, the president of the Entertainment Software Association, all say it is utter nonsense to suggest that what is dumped into a kid's head hour after hour, day after day, year after year, could possibly have behavioral consequences. Cigarette ads can persuade kids to smoke, but interactive simulators in which these same kids punch, hack, bludgeon, and maim affect not a wit their attitudes and behaviors, notwithstanding the findings of the American Psychological Association, published in August 2005.

The video game industry says Sticks and stones can break my bones, but games can never hurt me. Fine. I have a modest proposal for the video game industry. I'll write a check for $10,000 to the favorite charity of Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc's chairman, Paul Eibeler - a man Bernard Goldberg ranks as #43 in his book 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America - if any video game company will create, manufacture, distribute, and sell a video game in 2006 like the following:

Osaki Kim is the father of a high school boy beaten to death with a baseball bat by a 14-year-old gamer. The killer obsessively played a violent video game in which one of the favored ways of killing is with a bat. The opening scene, before the interactive game play begins, is the Los Angeles courtroom in which the killer is sentenced "only" to life in prison after the judge and the jury have heard experts explain the connection between the game and the murder.

Osaki Kim (O.K.) exits the courtroom swearing revenge upon the video game industry whom he is convinced contributed to his son's murder. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" he says. And boy, is O.K. not kidding.

O.K. is provided in his virtual reality playpen a panoply of weapons: machetes, Uzis, revolvers, shotguns, sniper rifles, Molotov cocktails, you name it. Even baseball bats. Especially baseball bats.

O.K. first hops a plane from LAX to New York to reach the Long Island home of the CEO of the company (Take This) that made the murder simulator on which his son's killer trained. O.K. gets "justice" by taking out this female CEO, whose name is Paula Eibel, along with her husband and kids. "An eye for an eye," says O.K., as he urinates onto the severed brain stems of the Eibel family victims, just as you do on the decapitated cops in the real video game Postal2.

O.K. then works his way, methodically back to LA by car, but on his way makes a stop at the Philadelphia law firm of Blank, Stare and goes floor by floor to wipe out the lawyers who protect Take This in its wrongful death law suits. "So sue me" O.K. spits, with singer Jackson Brown's 1980's hit Lawyers in Love blaring.

With the FBI now after him, O.K. keeps moving westward, shooting up high-tech video arcades called GameWerks. "Game over," O.K. laughs.

Of course, O.K. makes the obligatory runs to virtual versions of brick and mortar retailers Best Buy, Circuit City, Target, and Wal-Mart to steal supplies and bludgeon store managers and cash register clerks. "You should have checked kids' IDs!"

O.K. pushes on to Los Angeles. He must get there by May 10, 2006. That is the beginning of "E3" -- the Electronic Entertainment Expo -- the Super Bowl of the video game industry. O.K. must get to E3 to massacre all the video game industry execs with one final, monstrously delicious rampage.

How about it, video game industry? I've got the check and you've got the tech. It's all a fantasy, right? No harm can come from such a game, right? Go ahead, video game moguls. Target yourselves as you target others. I dare you.

Jack Thompson is a Miami lawyer who has for 18 years been involved in efforts to stop the marketing of adult entertainment to minors.

It is unlikely that Thompson's proposal will actually be turned into a game, as most videogame companies do not simply accept proposals from individuals. We'll keep you updated, however, as it is very likely that there will be some sort of response to Thompson's proposal from members of the videogame industry.

source: Jack Thompson

[me2]

...as he urinates onto the severed brain stems of the Eibel family victims, just as you do on the decapitated cops in the real video game Postal2.

This game is going to be hilarious.

[Lutraphobiac]

I guess he thinks that video game developers don't want to make the game because it might incite violence towards them through "desensitivization", which is an idiotic point to begin with.

It's a win - win stituation for him. He creates press for his stupid views, and the game companies can't make the game because it would be a terrible financial decision. Unfortunately people might not see this and think that he is clever and made a brilliant point.

Yea Gabe from Penny-Arcade (www.penny-arcade.com) made a pretty funny post about this subject.

[Cloral]

If he has that much money to piss away, he should donate it to charity anyway - and the fact that he is using this trick to ensure he doesn't have to shows what a selfish ass he is.


My email sig had my phone number in it. Jack actually just called and screamed at me for a couple minutes. He said if I email him again I will “regret it”. What a violent man.

[Grasshopper]

I don't even think his intentions were to follow through. I think more or less, hes writing that to give the gaming industry a sarcastic slap in the face. And to flaunt his power. Hey look how ironic this letter is. The game doesn't get made because the industry knows it's the truth, and it makes him look better. The game does get made and the industry ends up poking fun of itself, and it makes him look better. Just as Lutraphobiac stated earlier.

Whats worse in my opinion is this letter obviously is an extreme representation of how he feels about the gaming industry in general. I know its far fetched, but it had to come from somewhere. And I think it comes from how he feels already. Every person who gets killed, is someone he thinks is at fault. He blames the developers, he blames the publishers, he blames retailers, he blames the sales associate, and he blames the gamers. Not once in the whole letter does he pin blame on the parents, or himself. They aren't the blame. Its not like they go out and buy the most violent game their kid wants despite the sales associate advising against it.

What bugs me the most is just the way he goes about it. What about movies? Are those just as influential? Any responsible adult should knows that the games they are creating, or the movie they are producing aren't to be viewed by younger audience if its too violent. Its just somehow getting into the kids hands anyway. In my opinion, if he wants to influence anybody, he needs to stop flexing his political muscle and come at this from a different view. Stop threatening people, and stop blaming others. I could easily blame him because he isn't trying hard enough.

I don't play the game he's referring to, and I don't like the game he's referring. And I most certainly aren't saleing it to people under age. This isn't my problem. If the parents buy if for them, who are we to blame?

Sorry for the long post. Here is something to laugh at.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2003/20030811l.gif

[MottZilla]

Also it's ridiculus to think that a video game is a "murder simulator". The playing of the game with a controller is far from the act in the real world of killing someone. In a game, you kill with the push of a button. In real life, you pump the shotgun, pull back the slide, switch off the safety, you load the magizine or cartridges, and you finally point that gun and pull the trigger. Or what's even harder, you actually grab that bat, or knife and beat or stab them.

People that believe video games are more at fault than anything else are likely at fault themselves. Video games didn't invent violence nor are they combined more violent than real life. Besides, movies for the longest time have been more inspirational of violence than anything else, except for history itself.

[AlexMax]

Jack Thompson realizes that nobody is paying attention to him except for the hardcore gamers themselves. His steam ran out after the media aborted him after his ridiculous Sims 2 accusations. Now he's just clamoring for attention.

Ignore him. He'll eventually self destruct in a fireball of his own absurdity.

[Darth Marsden]

Wonder what he'll do next? Beat someone with a golf club and claim Vice City made him do it? He's running out of ideas, and we all know it.

I would like to see that game, although I suspect it's more likely to emerge as a film. A Punisher sequel, anyone? (Yes, I actually liked that film)

[Warlock]

Yeah, you gotta wonder what kind of sick mind this guy has to come up with this.. I draw the line at urinating on murdered children, thank you.

[AtmaWeapon]

When you visit his very own website (http://www.stopkill.com/) or the more informative wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(attorney)) you see this guy has a pretty consistent history of making it in the news for doing something controversial. See also: Michael Moore, Rev. Jesse Jackson, Michael Jackson, and several other public figures that are irrelevant until they do something crazy.

Of course, he baited a hook and now the media and gaming community are running with it.

My opinion has been and always will be that some individuals are more sensitive to depictions of violence than others. There is no question that some people commit crimes that copycat films, music, video games, books, and any other form of literature they have been exposed to. These people are defective units and represent an extremely small minority of the American public. It doesn't make the crime go away, but I hardly consider the 5 or 6 GTA copycat crimes that have been publicized out of several million people who play a game a strong correlation between the game and increased criminal activity.

How many kids watched Superman and jumped off of roofs in an attempt to fly? Not enough to stop making Superman. How many kids killed each other mimicing fights from shows such as Power Rangers? I know of at least one case, but that was not enough to cancel the show. There has to be a strong correlation between cause and effect, and the ratio of crimes to sales just doesn't imply a strong relationship.

[Dart Zaidyer]

While this is a stupid idea for a genuine videogame, I bet someone will do something similar just for the sheer spoof value.

[Saffith]

Sure will. These guys (http://hellfish.gtajunkies.com/Jt.html) say they plan to make a GTA:SA mod which will be like the game he described, except you play as Thompson himself. That'll be their second mod in which you play as him.

[Warlock]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2005/20051014l.jpg

Haha, that's hilarious

Edit: The news post is up now which has the whole jist of the conversation Gabe had with him:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/news.php?date=2005-10-14

Haha.. I wish I knew what was in that second link they posted. I wouldn't be surprised if that act of posting it hammered the site with crazy traffic which is why it's down now.

Edit: Someone posted the contents of that article for me.. hilarity:


Jack Thompson is blasted by pro-family group
Illustration
Rob Fahey 15:32 14/10/2005

National Institute on Media and the Family distances itself from vociferous lawyer

Florida attorney and anti-videogame campaigner Jack Thompson has come under fire from America's National Institute on Media and the Family for claiming to have the support of the group in his regular open letters.

The decision of the group to distance itself from the attorney and his headline-grabbing tactics comes despite the fact that like Thompson, the institute is a vocal critic of games such as Manhunt and 25 to Life for their violent content.

The institute's founder, Dr David Walsh, wrote an open letter to Thompson, a copy of which was obtained by US website Game Politics. The letter was also sent to the likes of senator Hillary Clinton, Bill Gates and Doug Lowenstein of the ESA - the same Doug Lowenstein whom Thompson has previously compared to Hitler.

It begins with Dr Walsh explaining that he established the institute ten years ago "to engage in research and education about the effects of media on children's health and development." Walsh writes that one of the areas of most concern to the institute is the effects of violent media.

"I know that you share that common concern and I am well aware that you have frequently cited me and our organisation as a source of scientific information," Walsh continues.

"However, over the past few months, I and members of my board have a growing concern that your use of our name, without our permission, has had a negative influence as we try to educate the public on this important issue.

"Your commentary has included extreme hyperbole and your tactics have included personally attacking individuals for whom I have a great deal of respect... Some of the people that you have publicly criticised are not only people of integrity, but are people who have worked to improve the lives of children."

Walsh goes on to note that Thompson has been using his name in correspondence even though they have no formal relationship, creating the impression "That we condone these tactics. We do not.

"The result is that our position and reputation as a research based, non-partisan, solution-focused organisation has been jeopardised.

"Consequently, I ask that you cease using the institute's or my name in any way that would give the impression that we support your efforts." Walsh also requests that Thompson remove the link to the institute's website from his own site.

Walsh's letter comes just days after Thompson issued an open letter to the videogames industry in which he outlined his idea for a game where the CEO of fictional company Take This, Paula Eibel, is murdered along with her husband and children. Should any developer agree to make the game, Thompson will donate $10,000 to the charity of choice of Paul Eibeler, the CEO of Take Two.

Mike Krahulik, the artist behind popular gaming culture comic Penny-Arcade and a founder of the hugely successful Child's Play charity, contacted Thompson after he made this offer to point out that Child's Play has raised over half a million dollars for children's hospitals around the USA since its inception.

Commenting on Penny-Arcade.com, Krahulik reports that Thompson proceeded to call him directly - keen, no doubt, to congratulate such a successful fellow organiser of videogaming-related charity efforts.

Or perhaps not. "Jack actually just called and screamed at me for a couple minutes," Krahulik said. "He said if I email him again I will 'regret it'. What a violent man."

[Grasshopper]

I think hes literally afraid of gamers, like gamers are out to kill him. :laughing:

[AlexMax]

Just Deserts.

On a slightly offtopic note, the two games that Tycho mentioned in his news post are rather (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/922120.asp) neat (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/925589.asp) looking.

[MacWeirdo42]

I'm half tempted to actually go and research this stuff. His claims that video game violence is blurring the line between fiction and reality are farfetched, but on the other hand, I must admit that on the whole, the U.S. is a much more aggressive country than most other 1st-world countries (in terms of murder rate, violence rate, etc.), and it remains unclear why, because it's not like other countries aren't exposed to the same media we are. An interesting thing to think about...

[Warlock]

I'm half tempted to actually go and research this stuff. His claims that video game violence is blurring the line between fiction and reality are farfetched, but on the other hand, I must admit that on the whole, the U.S. is a much more aggressive country than most other 1st-world countries (in terms of murder rate, violence rate, etc.), and it remains unclear why, because it's not like other countries aren't exposed to the same media we are. An interesting thing to think about...

What, compared to countries that feature regular terrorist attacks and bombings? The US isn't any more aggressive than any other country. It just happens to have a huge chunk of the population of the world and statistically you are going to find a few retards in that large of a group. There are also so many other factors such as how other countries enforce laws, dicipline, etc that will obviously influence things.

This kind of crap is going to go on whether video games are around or not. Just because some kid decides to immitate GTA doesn't mean if GTA didn't exist he wouldn't go immitate some movie or something else. It's just another scapegoat for the real problem which is the parents. Here's a hint.. if the game is rated Mature, maybe your socially ackward 12 year old shouldn't be playing it. If you smell strange chemicals and gunpowder coming from your garage, just *maybe* you want to check that out... you know.. like actually do some parenting and know what your kids are up to.

[Grasshopper]

At first I thought alot of people were just misunderstanding this guy because they were angry. At first, I was feeling disgust, but then I figured that if someone would just send a nice polite letter instead, then maybe Jack Thompson wouldn't be so rude to them, and get a nice response. I often wondered why anyone wouldn't just email him something concerning parents that buy the games for their own kids. Just to inform him of this situation...

I can't believe I was so stupid. Hit me across the head next time I think up some dumb-headed idea. I thought this was a nice letter, both of them. And well... I guess I don't ever need to email him. I don't have no sense anyway according to him.

"if I were the lunatic you claim, you would ignore me." Which is precisely what I'm going to do.

Check this out:
http://aelon.net/2005/07/jack-thompson-straw-man/

[Daarkseid]

What, compared to countries that feature regular terrorist attacks and bombings? The US isn't any more aggressive than any other country.

He was talking about 1st world nations, like France or Japan.

[MacWeirdo42]

And I was also talking about proportions, not sheer numbers. As in, rate per 100,000 people. You can't just say that it's because there are more people in the US, that has nothing to do with the proportion. Fact is, we have one of the highest homicide rates of the developed world.

[Warlock]

There are also so many other factors such as how other countries enforce laws, dicipline, etc that will obviously influence things.

/\ See above

[Tygore]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/

Read Tycho's "You Lose" post.

"It was only a matter of time until a mod team took Jack Thompson's disgusting revenge fantasy and made it flesh - and, just as I suggested, it was deemed insufficient.

Thompson now claims that his repellent suggestion was "satire," and we must conclude that his financial offer was also satire, some new breed of satire apparently that I'm sure is just hilarious to people in need.

You know what, Jack? We're going to be the men you're not. You said that your insulting, illusory ten thousand dollars would go to the charity of Paul Eibler's choice. We've got a good guess that he'd direct your nonexistant largesse toward The Entertainment Software Association Foundation, a body that has raised over six point seven million dollars over the last eight years. We've just made the donation you never would, and never meant to. Ten thousand dollars' worth. And we made it in your name. "

[Warlock]

http://biz.gamedaily.com/features.asp?article_id=10830

He replied to that guy who said to stop using his organization's name.

Also, read this if you havn't:
http://www.vgcats.com/jack.php

It's pretty funny.

[Fortis Nova]

I believe that Jack Thompson's obssesion with the video gaming industry has crossed the line over to insanity.

It is interesting to note, in spite of the prescence of video games, that the rate for violent crimes the past decade has been dropping fairly steadily. It very well may be that the drop would be greater if it wasn't for video games. On the other side of the coin, though, video games may be providing an outlet for those who feel the need for violence. Who, without said outlet, would take out their anger/frustration/whatever on other people instead in the form of violent crimes.

US Bureau of Justice: violent crime rate trend (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm)

[Cloral]

Exactly as I predicted; he never intended to give the money out. What a selfish prick.

And it's really funny that that post on VGCats has Jack's contact info. I can't imagine how much criticism and spam must be headed his way right now.

[Grasshopper]

I figured it too.

Well, its not like you can't just go to http://www.stopkill.com and find his email address there. He openly sticks it up for people. Meh, just ignore him. Despite how crazy he is, he has the upper hand. People who email him happen to be gamers, and why would you email him unless you were angry? At least thats his view. And that just makes him think since more angry gamers email him everyday saying how crazy he is, it shows how violent we are. And since hes a lawyer, other politicians think hes right. I mean, look how he somehow managed to shrug off NIMF's letter of disapproval.

He'll never listen to reason. Even if you said you hated Rockstar games, as long as he knows your a gamer, he going to be hard-headed about it. He's so set against R* that he thinks every gamer is an insane lunatic out to kill people. He sees all these comics about him too, which just fuels his appetite for distruction of the gaming industry. Hehe.

Edit: Oooh, looks like he took his email down off the site. But his phone number is still there.

Seriously, whats Best Buy and Target have to do with anything? Because the people who work there sale games to kids? Or parents buy it for them? What about sueing Wal-Mart. I'd really like him to take out Wally World. I hate that company. Gamestop might as well get sued, I don't know how many times I've sold GTA to little kids. :tongue:

A lot of the people who emailed him were probably over 18 before GTA 3 first came out

[AlexMax]

What the fuck? (http://www.livejournal.com/users/gamepolitics/110152.html)

[Lutraphobiac]

What the fuck? (http://www.livejournal.com/users/gamepolitics/110152.html)

What the fuck?

Seriously I don't know what to say about it. I am speechless.

[Warlock]

The police likely won't do anything, but this is rediculous. I hope this whole thing blows up in his face. This guy is seriously mentally damaged. There is literally something wrong with his brain that prevents him from thinking like a normal human being.

[Cloral]

Note that he never actually said what they were doing. Instead he tried to scare them into compliance by saying, "...There are a bunch of computer geeks out there who think that the video game industry has a constitutional right to paint a bullseye on your back and on your officers' backs..." He's tried to make them think PA is putting them in danger. But I think cops are familiar enough with danger to know Jack's full of shit.

On the other hand,


This story is completely false and defamatory. Take it down or else.

We have an actual threat coming from Jack. Normally I would say that is just the lashing of an angry man and should thusly be ignored, but considering Jack's weak mental state this could constitute an actual threat. The PA guys should report this to the cops. (And yes I realize that the 'or else' was refering to his current legal action, but if he can do this shit, so can PA)

One more thing: to you assholes who threatened to kill Jack: knock that shit off! All you are doing is giving him more fuel! I realize it likely wasn't anyone who reads this site, but I had to get that out there. Then again, I wouldn't put it past him to make that shit up either.

edit:

It is critical to establish that this letter isn't anything to worry about. We've been sent worse by better.
Just as I thought.

[Warlock]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2005/20051019l.jpg

Hahaha.. I can't wait for the news post on this one.

[Lutraphobiac]

Oh I hope my post did not indicate that I was worried in any way for PA. I was just completely speechless about the depth and passion of the guys stupidity. A little word of advice to Mr. Thompson. Never make your actions overshadow your message.

[Axel]

Better men have falled to the same fallacy. A cry for attention can easily overpower even a legitimate argument.

[Tygore]

And in recent news...

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051019-5458.html

[Dechipher]

Now THAT is hilarious....

[Cloral]

Ha, even after Mike told people to leave Jack alone because he was "impotent".

[Tygore]

There is but one power Penny Arcade does not hold over its fans: the power to make them back off.

[Fortis Nova]

'It's about time' is all I can say.

[Dart Zaidyer]

I gotta wonder though, with Thompson out of the way... Who's going to be sent in to replace him as the vocal champion of the "this and that is solely responsible for the destruction of human civilization" cause?

[Warlock]

I gotta wonder though, with Thompson out of the way... Who's going to be sent in to replace him as the vocal champion of the "this and that is solely responsible for the destruction of human civilization" cause?

"If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly realize"

[Tygore]

Please tell me you did NOT just compare Jack Thompson to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[Warlock]

http://www.pvponline.com/

http://www.pvponline.com/images/news/letter.gif

lol

[Aegix Drakan]

:odd: :odd: :odd:

Wow... that guy is nuts! the only reson these f'd up gamers (who I think are a disgrace to the gaming community) imitate these vilent games is they are wak minded, and can't tell the difference between the game and reality. If there were no video games, they would probably imitate the Texas chainsaw massecre or something.

I personally play violent games (Halo) to vent frustration. if I didn't have my games, I'd probably b reduced to banging my head on the wall.

This guy needs to get a grip, I mean, Really! Just because I play sonic doesn't mean I'll paint myself blue and sumersault into robots, now, does it?

What scares me is the guy is possibly gonna crack and act out his own game Idea.
:rolleyes: I can just see that guy in court for that right now... :tongue:

[Dechipher]

I don't think it'd be too far gone for him to murder a mother and a baby and claim the video games made him do it....

[Aegix Drakan]

I just had a thought!

I had a metnal Image of Jack doing exactly what is in his game idea, the cops bust him in the act because they realize this, and he ends up in court where the judge ells him "You were right, we need to make an example of those who let their games control them. Life in prison, solitary confinement, and no appeal! case closed!"

:tongue: You gotta admit, it's a thought.

[Fortis Nova]

Is that letter genuine? If so, how could his sanity have fallen this far? And still have a valid license for practicing law?

He was willing to see the owners of Penny Arcade, innocent of any crime, imprisoned. Will he ever get to the point where he takes the law into his own hands? I think It's unlikely, but if his sanity slips futher, who knows.

[Dechipher]

I'm pretty sure that letter was a mockup to poke fun at how far JT will go to get rid of anyone he doesn't like.

[Starkist]

No, I think it was legitimate. I think Mr. Thompson was actually wanting to get the Justice League involved in his case. :rolleyes:

[zoraking]

Maybe the big JT should grow a penis and call himself Hilary Clinton.

[Lutraphobiac]

Sigh. The letter was made by Scott Kurtz of www.pvponline.com


Edit: Ok now I see that Warlock DID post the source. Wow people can't you see a joke when you see it....

[Fortis Nova]

Well, that was embarrassing…I thought it was another one of his publicity stunts…

[Aegix Drakan]

Well,

It's a good thing for him thar PVP did it before him!

Think of how much more his rep would fall if he HAD said it!

[Darth Marsden]

This might sound weird but can anyone tell me where to get hold of that San Andreas mod that Jack refused to consider kosher? The main site has reached its user limit, apparently.

EDIT: Well, afterbeing linked to hell, what did I expect? For those interested, here's a working link (http://www.gta-downloads.com/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3815). Amazing how small it is - 2.9 Megs.