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jman2050
09-26-2005, 01:49 PM
We have a whole slew of new features coming out for the next version of ZC. Unfortunately, adding a bunch of notes inside a help document will onyl go so far in showing new users what's possible with all these changes. Thus, why PM originally made Demo Quest, and why Warlock made newfirst.

So the request is simple: would someone who has the time and energy be willing to create an example quest highlighting all the cool new features of ZC as they come out? It doesn't have to be original, you can just open bs_test.qst and mess around with it however you like. Me and DN could easily make small test quests to demonstrate newer features we make, but a completable, unified display of everything that's possible would go a long way at making the new version of ZC the best it can be. There's no urgency, as release is still dependant on how quickly we work, but I'm willing to see ideas from interested ones.

Freedom
09-26-2005, 02:23 PM
I'd be willing to lend a hand in any way needed, but be forewarned, a lot of this new stuff I haven't figured out myself yet.
If DN hadn't told me to press X I'd still be trying to figure out how to add the bigger link sprite, and I knew nothing of pressing o for relational mode either.

I've put quest making on hold so I have some free time.

ShadowTiger
09-26-2005, 02:25 PM
Perhaps switch to a new tileset? ... Obviously, this IS a shameful plug for the Pure Tileset Extreme, (Definitely check that out, BTW. It's worth the controversial awknowledgement of tileset advertising. ;) lol )

I wouldn't say it'd be too hard to design a new Example quest. What would we name it though? ExampleAdvanced.qst?

Okay. What I'm thinking we do, (Particularly after we spoke about it in #ZCTesters - Get in there if you don't already have an IRC account on initialized!) is go around and ask people if they have any resources they'd like to contribute toward the project which would fit in the basic Example.qst scheme. For example, we could substitute Radien's "Simple" ALTTP Mountains (http://www.purezc.com/index.php?page=tiles&id=504) for the current mountains, His Mallet Tiles (http://www.purezc.com/index.php?page=tiles&id=361), His Revised Dungeon Floors (http://www.purezc.com/index.php?page=tiles&id=349), My Spinning Compass (http://www.purezc.com/index.php?page=tiles&id=336), My Own Special Link Tiles (http://www.purezc.com/index.php?page=tiles&id=186), (I'm planning on making them larger anyway, so ... ) Some New Dungeon Water Tiles (http://www.purezc.com/index.php?page=tiles&id=84), ... So much, we could do.

Dark Nation
09-26-2005, 02:38 PM
Example211 :D

This is something I might enjoy working on, too. I have to do this sort of thing in a small capacity to test things I've added (such as the relational and dungeon modes and the new Link sprites). The question remains... should this be a completely custom quest (like example.qst was) or should it be a remake of Zelda 1 (like NewFirst)?

Freedom
09-26-2005, 03:06 PM
There are probably enough Minish Cap tiles around now to do a decent quest, I have 6 or 8 different dungeons I've ripped and a slew of other tiles.

Dart Zaidyer
09-26-2005, 04:17 PM
Maybe we should try basing this on the Minish Cap set. Because it's so complex, there's really no way it could be done with any sort of speed unless you were using all the new features of 2.11. Plus it uses so many colors that it'd be a great excuse for the new 8bpp tile mode.

Either way I think this should be an original quest. Part of what made Demo Quest so interesting was the fact that it wasn't just another NES retread, but something of its own. That allowed it to show off a lot of new ideas in addition to the straightforward features.

ShadowTiger
09-26-2005, 04:27 PM
I can see this as being done quite easily. Wouldn't quite account for the Din's Fire, Farore's Wind, or Nayru's Love tiles, (Well, less so for Farore's wind, obviously.) but those can be mimicked easily enough.

Heck, we could rip in a whole Cset 6 of TMC sprite tiles VERY Easily. I mean, absurdedly easily, if Cset 6 will be used just for Link's tiles. :shrug: I mean, take a look Here (http://sprites.fireball20xl.com/NSA/Sheets/mc-linkcap.png). If you can get their focus correctly, you can rip them very easily. And with the Alt+Slide ability of ZQuest's Tiles menu, we're in the clear! :D At least for Link Tiles. Man, so very, very easy.

I'd definitely go for a Minish Cap Tileset Example quest. However, this would mean that more people would be wanting to build their quests in that same tileset, and would be asking for more and more minish cap tiles, and overall quality would have to increase to keep up. The standards would be raised to near astronomical proportions. :p


Note: The rest of the TMC Tiles can be found Here (http://sprites.fireball20xl.com/NSA/HTML/Zelda/mc.htm). Or at least the ones they have.

Freedom
09-26-2005, 04:40 PM
I found that link this morning for the Minish cap tiles, even started playing with some, but the new version keeps crashing every time I turn around.

It crashed when editing Weapons>sprites when editing Palettes, and it crashed on me somewhere else, but forget what I was doing now.
I don't have these crashing problems with any of the other versions.
There's a gremlin in there somewhere.

JayeM
09-26-2005, 04:41 PM
How about a list of all the features to be demonstrated in the new test quest?

Freedom
09-26-2005, 04:52 PM
What do you mean by the alt-slide BH4?
I know about the glove, but is there a way to do multiple tiles alignment?
(like centering in 4 tiles)

ShadowTiger
09-26-2005, 04:59 PM
What do you mean by the alt-slide BH4?
I know about the glove, but is there a way to do multiple tiles alignment?
(like centering in 4 tiles)
Actually, yes. :) And believe me, it will be your -BEST- friend. ^_^ The trick is, ... ... just have to find out about these features somewhere. O_o' Obviously word of mouth isn't quite doing is job. :disgust: Not when someone like you, Freedom, doesn't know. That's just a travesty.

An Alt+Slide is when you wish to maneuver a rectangle or square of selected tiles around that entire selected area, including crossing over to other 16x16 tiles, even wrapping around (Which it did not do in the previous beta.) You basically select the range of tiles, hold in alt, and press the arrow keys to shift the graphic in the direction you'd want. You can move them any way you'd like for as long as you'd like.

And just to ensure it's heard of, you can also swap colors instantly when editing a tile. Select the two colors you'd like swapped in the tiles editor when editing a tile, and press Ctrl+S. The colors of the LMB & RMB will switch, as well as the colors in the tile itself. SOOO useful for recoloring.


And oddly enough, this hasn't really crashed on me once.

Freedom
09-26-2005, 05:06 PM
I see, I was trying to do it in the editor, I had heard some talk about it a while back, just never went any further with it.

We need a list of what all hot keys do in any given situation.

Yea, when I added one of the big link swim tiles it up and crashed, and also when I went to palette 10 and changed the last color in cset 3 from white to black it crashed.
Really no reason it should have either time, it just did.

ShadowTiger
09-26-2005, 05:12 PM
I see, I was trying to do it in the editor, I had heard some talk about it a while back, just never went any further with it.

We need a list of what all hot keys do in any given situation.

Yea, when I added one of the big link swim tiles it up and crashed, and also when I went to palette 10 and changed the last color in cset 3 from white to black it crashed.
Really no reason it should have either time, it just did.
Ah. It crashed/froze on me too while I was editing the swim tiles, (Merely entering the swim tab at all.) and had merely chalked it up to computer lag. Bah. I guess it did crash on me after all. :sweat:

Freedom
09-26-2005, 05:26 PM
I guess I'm just a dumbass, I still can't get that edit tile thing to work.
I have Link in 4 tiles, 2 above 2 and if I try to highlight it lights the whole upper row, if I hold Ctrl it just edits 1 tile
what am I missing here?

ShadowTiger
09-26-2005, 05:44 PM
Huh? ... Oh, ... are you trying to "Slide" the Link Tiles? Yeah, it's not the easiest thing in the world to explain; I certainly apologize for my lack of ability to do so. ... er .. Hm. Let me try again ... hopefully this time I'll get it right. XD Sorry again. ^_^'


Okay. In the Tile Editor, press spacebar to enter the rectangular selection mode, then highlight 100% of the tiles that you want to center. Don't forget to highlight the space that the tiles in question will be moving into as well.

Then, holding in Alt, (I use right alt.) Press the direction (key) of the direction that you want it to slide in.

... Oh, I think it's that rectangular tool that you're missing. Yeah, that's easy to miss TOO. O_o'

Man, we really DO need a comprehensive list of shortcuts and hotkeys! O_O'

Freedom
09-26-2005, 05:47 PM
press spacebar.... ok, didn't know to do that.
I'll go try this thing again :)

Freedom
09-26-2005, 06:03 PM
I'm not getting this at all.
When I'm in the editor I see 1 tile.
When I press the spacebar It darkens the lines between the pixils but I still see 1 tile.
when I hold Alt and push the arrows it edits 1 tile.
Highlight what? I'm only seeing 1 tile, if I try to highlight them outside the editor it highlights the whole row.

ShadowTiger
09-26-2005, 06:10 PM
Oh, I mean, from one level up. .. Like, not while editing a tile; you do this from the tiles menu, where you see ALL the different tiles. Yeah, it's complex, I know. Like, you'd THINK you'd be sliding tiles from the edit menu, but I guess it's a question of what you can do at the present level of scale. :shrug:

Freedom
09-26-2005, 06:13 PM
What do you mean one level up?
If I try to highlight in the tile pages it highlights the whole row of tiles.
scale?

ShadowTiger
09-26-2005, 06:15 PM
Yes, hit space bar on the tiles menu, and the tile selection radius should change from highlighting entire rows at a time, to highlighting a rectangular area instead. THAT's where you hold Alt and press directional keys in. Sorry if I was being confusing.

And by "one level up," I mean, leave the "drawing" screen and enter the tile selection screen, where all the tiles are displayed.

EDIT2: .. We .. REALLY .. need "official terms" for these, apparently. @[email protected]'

Freedom
09-26-2005, 06:34 PM
Ok, I give up.
I got it to highlight and even move, but the 2 on the left move at different increments as the two on the right, the two on the right will move 2 pixils while the ones on the left move 3 or 4 or 5, or up one and down another.

I'll do it the way I've been doing it, one tile at a time.

Need a degree in computer science to figure some of this crap out.

jman2050
09-26-2005, 10:07 PM
It would probably be better as an original quest. As for the hotkeys in ZC, one of the biggest problems with the GUI si that no one knows what anything does. That will be addressed, but it's a difficult situation at the moment >_<

Freedom
09-26-2005, 10:52 PM
Plus it uses so many colors that it'd be a great excuse for the new 8bpp tile mode.

.

has something been done with this?

*b*
09-27-2005, 12:59 AM
I'd love to create a demo quest! or at least, create graphics for it! I want to help with SOMETHING official with ZC...

Dart Zaidyer
09-27-2005, 01:30 AM
I'd love to create a demo quest! or at least, create graphics for it! I want to help with SOMETHING official with ZC...
Seconded. Your high-quality work will really help to show everyone what ZC is capable of.

ShadowTiger
09-27-2005, 09:12 AM
Ok, I give up.
I got it to highlight and even move, but the 2 on the left move at different increments as the two on the right, the two on the right will move 2 pixils while the ones on the left move 3 or 4 or 5, or up one and down another.

I'll do it the way I've been doing it, one tile at a time.

Need a degree in computer science to figure some of this crap out.

No wonder. You just found a bug in ZC's Tiles Screen. ;) Kudos. XD Try to do it in 2.10. It definitely works there. It's been broken since the last beta. It -does- work in 2.10, so that may reassure you that it's a wonderful feature. ;) I use it all the time without any trouble. Don't forget to try that Ctrl+S thing while drawing. SO useful.


Y'know, we could all help create the Demo quest. It could be like a mini group quest. Each of us could put a little heart and soul into it, and make it all our own. ^_^ <3 ... lol ... We could all have an area which would match with the style of our own mind and creation, to show off what we'd likely be able to do with the engine depending on who uses it. We'd just have to work quickly to pass it off to the next person, since the import/export features are weird now.

Hey, It's a unique idea, at least. ;)

Freedom
09-27-2005, 11:01 AM
ROFLOL that had me frustrated, I was sure I was doing it how you said and it was screwing my tiles all up.

ShadowTiger
09-27-2005, 12:17 PM
ROFLOL that had me frustrated, I was sure I was doing it how you said and it was screwing my tiles all up.
XD ... I know, ... lol, ... I apologize so much for that! XD But at least we know the bug is still around. ;) It's DEFINITELY a priority bug, jman. We MUST fix this bug before we do anything else. It's getting questmakers all riled up. :p New graphics are all well and good, but if you can't DO anything with them, ...


EDIT: I'm not lazy, I'm ... just ... ... practical. o.o' I did it the old way too. > >.'

Freedom
09-27-2005, 12:58 PM
What have you got to apologize for?
You clued me in on pressing the spacebar, which I didn't know about, it was when it still didn't work right I thought I was doing it wrong.

I've been half heartedly doing some Minish Link sprites, I have the ones walking down with the mirror sheild done, and walking down with no shield.

JayeM
09-27-2005, 02:40 PM
About those hot keys, jman, could you give us a list of them? I'd like to add them to the help file.

These things are no help at all if people don't know about them. Couldn't they be added into the regular interface, like a right-click menu or something?

bigjoe
09-29-2005, 01:05 AM
Shoot, it would be nice to see a number of quests made to test the newer features in ZC. I seem to remember a time when there were 3 or 4 demos out along with a public beta.

But if youre talking about replacing Newfirst as the primary example quest, Im not against that either.

jman2050
02-23-2006, 11:16 AM
Bringing back from the dead.

Newfirst is... well, iit's nice and all. We won't replace it of course, but we just do need an example quest that'll demonstrate the features of 2.11 nicely. Something similar to Demo Quest. Doesn't have to be long or even good-looking, it can use the classic set for all I care, it just has to be a good demonstration.

Anyone still interested?

ShadowTiger
02-23-2006, 12:01 PM
jman:

UCoL

NeoFirst

Make the call. :p I'm totally willing to do this. I just wonder which tileset I'd start from: Mr. Z's Pure Tileset Extreme, or Radien's DoR Tileset. Both are truly formidable sets.

It definitely needs to have all dungeon wall sets, floor border sets, and even dirt / grass / rock sets be in Isometric and Dungeon Carving layout mode, as well as having sprites for all the new features and items, ... ... Oh and I need to go to class now. XD Seeya in a bit.

jman2050
02-23-2006, 01:06 PM
Once beta 7 comes out, and we get all the bugs ironed out, you can start. I don't care which tileset you use.

If anyone is willing to help BH4, please do so. Not that I'm implying it has to be collaborative, but I think everyone can at least lend a hand when it comes to a new example quest.

*b*
02-23-2006, 02:32 PM
actually, I started a quest like this a while ago. it was supposed to be more of a first quest remake, but, I could give BH4 the tileset, once I complete it. it's fairly easy to use, as it's based off of 1st.qst's tileset, with some added tiles and such, to make it look more modern

I could finish it up in no time, if BH4 would like to use it

[edit] and it IS a flashy tileset. if it's a tutorial quest, the classic tileset isn't a very good example of what ZQuest can do, you know?

[edit again] and reading the first page of this thread, because this thread seemed familliar, I see that I already volunteered graphics for such a quest, so that makes what I just said redundant and repetitive

Jigglysaint
02-23-2006, 06:01 PM
A thought I got is why not make it a tutorial quest making quest for the new features? For example, for example, show some complex tricks and explain how to pull it off, or highlight stuff. Think Brickroad from Earthbound.

KJAZZ
02-23-2006, 06:37 PM
Well, regarding the hotkeys, I made a hotkey guide that AlphaDawg stuck on his website quite a while ago.. and while it IS outdated, it's still got a very large chunk of them. I'll try to go and find it right now.

EDIT: Well, that was quite faster than I expected.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020209115335/http://www.zeldaclassic.com/zqtutorial/thirdparty/hotkeylist/index.html

Again, this list is fairly old, but it does have a bunch of the hotkeys already defined. I'm far too out of the loop right now to update it myself, so perhaps someone else could? :shrug:

cbailey78
02-23-2006, 06:59 PM
I can see this as being done quite easily. Wouldn't quite account for the Din's Fire, Farore's Wind, or Nayru's Love tiles, (Well, less so for Farore's wind, obviously.) but those can be mimicked easily enough.

Heck, we could rip in a whole Cset 6 of TMC sprite tiles VERY Easily. I mean, absurdedly easily, if Cset 6 will be used just for Link's tiles. I mean, take a look Here. If you can get their focus correctly, you can rip them very easily. And with the Alt+Slide ability of ZQuest's Tiles menu, we're in the clear! At least for Link Tiles. Man, so very, very easy.

I'd definitely go for a Minish Cap Tileset Example quest. However, this would mean that more people would be wanting to build their quests in that same tileset, and would be asking for more and more minish cap tiles, and overall quality would have to increase to keep up. The standards would be raised to near astronomical proportions.


Note: The rest of the TMC Tiles can be found Here. Or at least the ones they have.

Your links to HERE do not work! It takes me to an invalid page that cannot be displayed.

ShadowTiger
02-23-2006, 07:23 PM
A thought I got is why not make it a tutorial quest making quest for the new features? For example, for example, show some complex tricks and explain how to pull it off, or highlight stuff. Think Brickroad from Earthbound.
You know, that'd be -very- nice. You could have an actual Tutorial quest, with real images from ZQuest based on combos. You could have little tutorial characters pointing at things, displaying strings, etc.

Either that, or plan out a really, really nasty dungeon for the old newfirst design. :p

I still think we should call it "NeoFirst." :p

Sir_Johnamus
02-25-2006, 12:38 PM
Neofirst, that has a good ring to it...
I could help by writing the story, if you need one. PM me with the requirments. (Just an fyi for this, I get carried away sometimes with twists and crap). Just don't flame me for this, please.

ShadowTiger
02-25-2006, 07:28 PM
... Why ... would ... anyone flame you for it? > >.' I think offering to help is a cause most noble under just about any circumstances. It's very nice of you really. But why PM them? It's all best seen out in the open. Like I said before, it -could- be a tutorial quest. The player walks through a relatively linear (Though not necessarily.) world where each screen or so shows you how to work a particular feature of ZQuest, using actual visuals from ZQuest, converted to combos within ZQuest itself.

I'm just wondering how we'd go about doing this, and in what fashion, and what should be exhibited. It's also a Beta 7 showoff quest, as well as a tutorial, so it should do everything using the new features.

Sir_Johnamus
02-25-2006, 07:36 PM
Idea:
Screen 1: Displays how to use basic combos
Screen 8: Displays cycling
Screen 20+: Superadvanced tricks.
I jumped around to show how the world could be set up.

Would something like that work?

ShadowTiger
02-25-2006, 08:32 PM
Eh, it's not based on a screen by screen basis. It's "how" to go about doing everything we need to do, and finding out -what- we need to do.

Jigglysaint
02-25-2006, 08:57 PM
Hmm, what if there was an elementery storyline related to the tutorial? I was thinking of an intereactive tutorial. Imagine this: To get the Wooden Sword, you would have to basically use Link as a cursor to place the wooden sword object on the screen. It could start as a blank screen in Zequest, then instructions could be given(you would need to disable the text barrier for this) to go to the specific menu, choose the right option, then have the sword placed in order for you to get. I might try somthing like that to see how it feels. It would only need to be done once obviously, and only when a new concept has been learned. Then, these tricks could be archived, and thanks to 4 warps per room, these things could be organized and unlocked according to obtaining triforce(this is the archive, you would still need to learn it first) and stuff. For example, from the start of the game to the end of level 1, you learn the fundimentals of quest building(not in order, as the idea is to lean while playing, not play while you learn). For the wooden sword, it's like I mentioned. When you get to level 1, you learn about warps, then on the first screen you learn about doors and combos. When you go right, you learn about monsters, and so forth. Each level can have like 8 to 12 concepts(including between levels). Advanced concepts are unlockable via finding special items or reaching certain areas. It does seem like hard work, but I think it would really help the players out to make better quests. Besides, most of us learn best by playing video games anyway. Might as well exploit entertainment for the sake of learning.

koopa
02-26-2006, 01:06 PM
I'd suggest a quest that's mostly linear, as some of you suggested, with a different feature in each room (item, shop, warp, secret, tiered secret, ...). There are literally hundreds of features I could think of.

Then someone could write a tutorial that explains for each screen how it was made, sort of a zquest screen-by-screen tutorial. The first screens would be simple things (how to place combos) and in the end, if we're lucky, you'd have a custom boss... Of course the tutorial quest would be unpassworded so you can play the screen through, read the tutorial and look at it in zquest.

I would be quite interested in helping to make such a tutorial, be it in zquest or article-writing. I've done a mini-tutorial on flags, something in the same style but on a much larger scale is what I'm suggesting.

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LINK (http://www.purezc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17039)
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KJAZZ
02-26-2006, 07:55 PM
I really don't think that a quest that looks like you're in Zquest is the way to go. It would be a lot easier for someone to just make a nice tutorial in HTML with pictures (much like AlphaDawg's old tutorial), and people could tab to that window from Zquest, to reference it while making their quest, rather than learning in Zelda Classic itself, and then closing it and going to Zquest.

No, I really think that this example quest should be somewhat of a cross between Newfirst.qst and Demo.qst ... (I like the name NeoFirst.qst, BH4)..

firefly
02-26-2006, 09:01 PM
I really don't think that a quest that looks like you're in Zquest is the way to go. It would be a lot easier for someone to just make a nice tutorial in HTML with pictures (much like AlphaDawg's old tutorial), and people could tab to that window from Zquest, to reference it while making their quest, rather than learning in Zelda Classic itself, and then closing it and going to Zquest.

No, I really think that this example quest should be somewhat of a cross between Newfirst.qst and Demo.qst ... (I like the name NeoFirst.qst, BH4)..

http://www.geocities.com/firefly_zc/gui_colorset_test.htm

I could continue making it, but I can't afford to pay large amounts of money just to have more uploading space.
I'm just learning about HTML (I'm in 8th grade), that's why probably I can't make a better tutorial.