It's a good thing the world community helps us out so much!

[AtmaWeapon]

What is making my blood boil today is the lack of aid headed to New Orleans. Let a tsunami hit poor starving people in India and the entire world (read: United States) mobilizes to help them, raising billions of dollars in relief money and donating hundreds of thousands of man-hours to help. Let a hurricane destroy portions of America, and see how the entire world pays back their debt by rallying to gather millions of dolla-- oh wait, I forgot, we're the pig dogs and we deserved it.

New Orleans's general response can be summed up by this CNN bullet point:

Mayor blasts feds: "'Get off your asses"If this hurricane had hit godforsaken Iran, we'd be in the streets right now handing out food packets as if we were God the Father delivering mana bread from heaven, and we'd be worshipped as saviors right until the point where they didn't need our help anymore, then it'd be back to jihad.

What is also appalling is the lows people will sink to when there is no order. They can't evacuate hopitals due to SNIPER FIRE (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.hospital.sniper/index.html) from camper fags. Read that again and let it sink in. Snipers are in the city taking pot shots at hospital patients. To those who say the police "do nothing", take note. New Orleans is extremely dangerous right now and I'm starting to believe my father was on to something when he said after they fix the levees they should pump water in to New Orleans and let it soak for a few months so the two-legged snakes can kill each other off.

Meanwhile, the White House is sending comfortable aid (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/02/bush.katrina.ap/index.html) such as "We're going to help" and "We're voting on the help right now". I expect the "Get Well Soon" and "Sorry for your loss" cards signed by congressmen will arrive in a few weeks, perhaps the stranded citizens of N.O. can use them as a currency to try and fix their city.

[Solaris_Omega]

Actually their sending 1400 National Guard troops today, 1400 more tomorrow, and 1400 more after that? They are also evacuating people to other neighboring states to try and get needy people out of there. It wasn't the city's ambulance that received sniper fire, it was Acadian Ambulance, a for-hire medical group. They just happened to be adding support to the Tulane Medical Center. The looting is obscene, and not to be racist but, why do the only videos of looting contain large grosses of blacks?

I do agree with you that food and water should have gotten there faster, look how fast we got it to Iraq after the shock and awe. Alot of the media is proclaiming that "that nation has forgotten them", and "when will these people get help", but in all seriousness, its not fair to compare this situation to Iraq especially when we had months to prepare for our relief efforts in Iraq. Even if we wanted to prepare for Katrina, we would have only had weeks or less to do so. We knew it was a Cat5 hurricane, but there is no telling what it would do when it hit, where it would hit, or even if it would weaken when it hit landfall before taking out any major structures. I can't imagine what those people are going through down there right now, but right now its still only three days after.

The Government is doing alot to help those people out down their, they are just getting a bad rap from the media right now. People need to stop going around talking about the Government like its a building that walks around and does shit. The Government is made up of people. Its on the american people as well as the Government to help the survivors out down there, not just the Government. The international community is really being piss poor with this one, especially with how many we've helped. The only country I have even heard of so far is Germany, and that was only them saying they'll help out...

[DarkPanther]

So what have you done about it so far?

[theplustwo]

The looting is obscene, and not to be racist but, why do the only videos of looting contain large grosses of blacks?Because the videos were taken in predominately African-American neighborhoods. If you watch the coverage on television, they'll have a story about a family of white people bravely fighting to "find" supplies in a half-destroyed gas station, and then they'll have a story about the horrendous looting going on and show only black people.

[elise]

Sounds like you guys don't hear that much

Let a tsunami hit poor starving people in India and the entire world (read: United States) mobilizes to help them,
guess all the money and people we sent there never came there if you think only the United States did that

The only country I have even heard of so far is Germany, and that was only them saying they'll help out...
That we already offered all kind of help to the United States
( and already there are people on theire way there to help )
You also never heard that.
So what is making my blood boil today , is topics like this where you guys
fall allover the rest of the word without even knowing whats going on in the rest of the world

[Gerudo]

i dunno if any of you listened to the interview by NO Mayor Ray Nagin, but he is so pissed. i highly suggest that you all listen to that interview.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.nagin/index.html
^ link to the vid is there

edit:
if anyone has a problem with the video, here is a transcript.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/index.html

[Solaris_Omega]

So what have you done about it so far?
Actually, I was waiting on a post like this. I donated $200 of my money to FEMA as well as donated blood. I don't have much more than I can give, but i did give somethng. Elise, I simply said that I heard aboout Germany and nothing else, I never said that they weren't helping, that was just all I heard. Its kinda hard to hear news around the rest of the world when all they show on the news is about New Orleans.

[elise]

Solaris Omega thats also about all they show up here in the news.
Don't think the rest of the world isn't offering help or ignore the people that
suffer from this tragedy .
Many countries already offered all kinds of help , but they can only sent it if Bush gives his okay thats the way it works.

[Gerudo]

well, i know that they have to get the ok from W to be let in to help, but what about the the local feds in the US? i see above that they are going to send in X amount of troops, but imo, that could have been done far earlier.

note:
unlike Sol, i dont actually have the resources to donate anything, and i wont be able to respond to a post like DP's.

[mikeron]

The footage of black people running around in the flood waters carrying loot looks exactly like footage from Haiti. Weird stuff.

[AtmaWeapon]

A lot of my anger is probably unfounded and ranting, but I'm going to go over some of the better things that have been asked.

First, Solaris_Omega is correct. Comparing the situation to Iraq is unfair because we had several months to prepare and relief efforts began almost immediately.

Second, I apologize that I offended people in other countries that are actually offering help. I did kind of go overboard with those statements and should have read a few news articles before making them.

And while the arrival of National Guardsmen in the city is a welcome and good move, why did it take 4 days to decide they needed it? Refugees are dying not just from poor living conditions but from crime inside their shelters; lawlessness is everywhere (evidenced by rampant looting and hospital evacuations hindered by sniper fire); the police are doing all they can but it is a few hundred police trying to keep a few thousand refugees in order. I could understand troop mobilization taking a few days, but why did it take so long to decide that they needed support?

I still think the response has been disappointing, though it seems to me perhaps things are changing for the better now that the media has sensationalized it.

Racism is rampant in the news. Here's (http://yahooracists.ytmnd.com/) a nice one about a white family innocently "finding" supplies while a criminal negro is totally looting stores. This is bullcrap and almost as embarrassing as our slow response to a national tragedy. Oh and DarkPanther I'll answer your question but to be fair you have to answer me back and let all of AGN know of your great humanitarian exploits.

Saturday night I cut my date short to help with a hurricane shelter at our church. My fiance's mother is the manager, so if that affects your opinion I'll let you know. I spent 2 hours setting up tables and chairs and bought an antenna out of pocket in a vain attempt to pick up a station of any use on the shelter's TV. I carried and wheeled other TVs all around the shelter trying to pick up the station, but never could get it. At least 1 hour of this work was after my fiance left, and I only left because there was nothing more to do.

Sunday I had to prepare myself for the hurricane, so I didn't spend much time at the shelter. I got to school and prepared my emergency supplies, then started to study.

For most of this week I haven't done much, I won't disclose any information about donations because I think it is personal business. I am doing a supply run this weekend so my father has food for the next week while he is sitting in our house to make sure no one breaks in, despite the fact that gas is scarce so I only have a prayer that the gas stations in Meridian aren't out of gas or I'll be stranded. Also I have 6 assignments due Tuesday that I am neglecting for this supply run and I plan to spend time in the shelter instead of working on them.

So what have you done, DP? Your question is invalid without an answer, for you cannot point an accusing finger if you are guilty of apathy.

[Darth Marsden]

I believe there's a charity concert being organised to raise money for places hit by Katrina. Here's a link. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9146525/) Support IS coming, Atma, whatever you may think.

[Lilith]

The looters are all black because 70% of New Orleans is black, most of the poor population was black, and most of the rich people had the ability to get out.

I hate Bush-bashing, but I think Bush is being pretty dumb about it if not just for the delay. Thanks, now a ton of people think the US can't control their own teenage male snipers with guns, lol. Also...it's not exactly good to turn away help from other countries, if only for the cementing alliance factor and not the debt. ALSO, I read last night he's going on a Gulf Area "morality" tour or something, and I literally lol'd. Yeah, that'll reeeeally lift their spirits...

The fact that, as many people have pointed out, this storm was EASILY predictable and everyone knew about it before hand, yet the government reflex to it has been so slow and lax at this point, that really kills me. I can only hope they, as some have also pointed out, really crack down now...

[bigjoe]

I'm a little disturbed that the shoot-to-kill order was given against looters. I mean, aiming a gun at someone and telling them to drop something is enough. You don't need to kill people when it isn't necessary.

[Beldaran]

I'm a little disturbed that the shoot-to-kill order was given against looters. I mean, aiming a gun at someone and telling them to drop something is enough. You don't need to kill people when it isn't necessary.

You can't imagine the situation there. There are armed gangs of criminals raping and murdering people, and firing at rescue personal. The army is going in with combat orders. Police snipers are killing people to keep them out of the police headquarters, which trucks of armed criminals (with Ak47's and shotguns) are trying to take over. The state convicts have escaped and taken hostages. It's a war zone.

[Archibaldo]

What I don't get is how people knew the hurricane was coming and still stayed in their homes. I mean, the city is [b]below[/] sea level. How can you not think that Cat5 hurricane will not affect your home?

Just because your poor doesn't mean you couldn't get out of the city in time. They knew a hurricane, yet they stayed there. Even if you're not able to afford it, you do every thing you can to get the money. You're going to lose more money if you stay.

[Rainman]

I do agree with you that food and water should have gotten there faster, look how fast we got it to Iraq after the shock and awe. Alot of the media is proclaiming that "that nation has forgotten them", and "when will these people get help", but in all seriousness, its not fair to compare this situation to Iraq especially when we had months to prepare for our relief efforts in Iraq. Even if we wanted to prepare for Katrina, we would have only had weeks or less to do so. We knew it was a Cat5 hurricane, but there is no telling what it would do when it hit, where it would hit, or even if it would weaken when it hit landfall before taking out any major structures. I can't imagine what those people are going through down there right now, but right now its still only three days after.


You are right. They didn't have several months. They had years. Pretty much everyone knew that a hurricane could do this to New Orlean yet there was no plan or, if there was one, it was followed through horribly.

[Spiffy Enigma]

You can't imagine the situation there. There are armed gangs of criminals raping and murdering people, and firing at rescue personal. The army is going in with combat orders. Police snipers are killing people to keep them out of the police headquarters, which trucks of armed criminals (with Ak47's and shotguns) are trying to take over. The state convicts have escaped and taken hostages. It's a war zone.

So you're basically saying that we have another American civil war on our hands? I thought I'd never see the day.... :(

[Beldaran]

So you're basically saying that we have another American civil war on our hands?


No I am not saying that. I am saying that there is civil unrest and lawlessness in Louisiana brought on by a criminal and destructive element and desperate, uncontrollable circumstances.

If you want to compare the hurricane disaster area to the american civil war, you might want to roll your window down first, that way it will be easier to throw logic out. :tongue:

[Machiavelli]

This journal has become the Survival of New Orleans blog. In less perilous times it was simply a blog for me to talk smack and chat with friends. Now this journal exists to share firsthand experience of the disaster and its aftermath with anyone interested.
Here (http://www.mgno.com) is the blog.


I dont even know what to type about this disaster. I'm just :mad: and :angry: and ...ARGHH!!

[MottZilla]

What I don't get is how people knew the hurricane was coming and still stayed in their homes. I mean, the city is [b]below[/] sea level. How can you not think that Cat5 hurricane will not affect your home?

Just because your poor doesn't mean you couldn't get out of the city in time. They knew a hurricane, yet they stayed there. Even if you're not able to afford it, you do every thing you can to get the money. You're going to lose more money if you stay.

They did not know exactly the path of the hurricane. In the past New Orleans has been very lucky. People in the past were able to stay through horrible storms. They probably thought it wouldn't be that bad. And yes if you are poor it DOES mean you can't get out in time. Gasoline for your car isn't cheap, and ofcourse, you have to have that car first. And I doubt walking/running away was an option either.

And the poor people are doing everything they can now, "looting" places for food and water.

Anyways, isn't it nice how politicians like to hold news confrences and such to blow eachother on what a great job they are supposively doing?

[carrot red]

By Friday, offers had been received from Russia, Japan, Canada, France, Honduras, Germany, Venezuela, Jamaica, Australia, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, Hungary, Colombia, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, China, South Korea, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, New Zealand, Guatemala, Paraguay, Belgium, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Italy, Guyana, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Austria, Lithuania, Spain, Dominica, Norway, Cuba and Bahamas.
Quote from Australia "The United States is so often at the forefront of international aid efforts to help less fortunate nations."

I understand that survival instinct might kick in and people would secure food for their family. I have no moral problem with people starving looting food and water. It’s looting other commodities, such as electronics, that smacks of opportunism, not desperation. Stealing stuff like TV sets, electronic gadgets, compact discs, etc. is just a waste of time. It won't help you survive, and ultimately it will just weigh you down. Besides, what do you intend to do with it? You can't stay in the city and you can't take it with you. If you're going to make the excuse of survival you must also use the hierarchy of basics needs of survival: Food-Clothing-Shelter. Nowhere does it say Rolex watches, Microwave ovens, raping a 12 year old, robbing someone at gun point, breaking an aquarium, shooting innocent people, etc.

I think there are several reasons why some people stayed behind:
1) Belief that the hurricane wouldn't be as bad as predicted
2) Poor people who don't have the means to leave, nor a place to go
3) Elderly people and/or sick people, same as #2
4) Criminals that saw this disaster as an opportunity
5) People who elected to stay behind to guard their property against #4

While I do blame the Feds for not reacting sooner, I think the governors of New Orleans and LA itself are most to blame, for not planning something better, so a mass rescue effort would not have to happen. Here the mayor is screaming at the Feds, but what did he do to prepare his people? "Hey, a hurricane is coming, you are on your own to get out. Good luck! " (Think Giuliani.) How can you not have a serious plan living in a soup bowl, knowing every single hurricane season it could happen?
On the other hand, the government isn't perfect by any stretch, but realize that quite a bit was done to prepare. The evacuation notice was granted in plenty of time and the National Guard was pre-positioned to help. There were over 4000 soldiers in the superdome before the storm hit. (To give you an idea of how many that really is, the entire Virginia Army National Guard is only about 7700 soldiers.) Given the war the Guard is stretched pretty thin. Coast Guard units had to pull out to protect their boats, etc, until the storm passed and that delayed help. The Navy had to stay away for the same reasons, although ships are moving to the gulf now. I know some FEMA volunteers and all were put on standby prior to the storm. They have to deploy people in a sustainable fashion, meaning they can't send the whole kit and caboodle instantly because they need to be able to sustain the aid over several months.

The bottom line is that we had a city that sits 6+ feet below sea level hit by a category 5 hurricane. It is going to suck no matter how you slice it.

[KingArthur]

the moral of the story.. dont build a city in such a dumb place. -6 would be fine if it were in the middle of the continent.. but on the coast? wtf were they thinking...

and if people WERENT being selfish the poor and elderly wouldnt have had any problem leaving town, but because people only care for themselves and their immediate family for the most part, the poor and elderly were left behind, likely in favour of material goods.

[Archibaldo]

They did not know exactly the path of the hurricane. In the past New Orleans has been very lucky. People in the past were able to stay through horrible storms. They probably thought it wouldn't be that bad. And yes if you are poor it DOES mean you can't get out in time. Gasoline for your car isn't cheap, and ofcourse, you have to have that car first. And I doubt walking/running away was an option either.

And the poor people are doing everything they can now, "looting" places for food and water.

Anyways, isn't it nice how politicians like to hold news confrences and such to blow eachother on what a great job they are supposively doing?


Any body could have gotten out of the city. You sell every thing you own (It's going to be destroyed or stolen any way), buy a bus ticket, and live in a cheap ass motel. Sure you may be in debt up to your eye balls, but atleast you won't be dead/stranded in a super dome.

[ZomfgIts0rzlolo]

Oh yes, since we all know how appealing an option that is if you do it every time a hurricane occurs. By the time you know that the hurricane is deadly enough to destroy the city (Read: 10 minutes prior) its way too late. And a poor person can't afford to leave town every time a hurricane starts.

[AtmaWeapon]

Buckle your seat belt because I have a lot to say.

First I have completely and entirely changed my original opinion. C. Ray Nagin is a faggot and the only reason he is not entirely to blame is because of the territorial behavior of LA's governor Kathleen Blanco. Thousands have died because they wanted to handle the situation all by themselves and now they are blaming the federal government in an attempt to distract the public away from the root cause.

"Hold on, Atma, you were gung-ho against the feds the other day!" I hear you say. However, I did leave this opening in my stance:
I could understand troop mobilization taking a few days, but why did it take so long to decide that they needed support?I was most angered by the delay in the deployment in National Guardsmen. Now I understand the reason. Though my dad is quite radical, he does read up on his stuff before forming an opinion and he revealed the first points that started changing my mind:

Ray Nagin issued a mandatory evacuation order for low-lying areas of New Orleans a few days before the mandatory evacuation of the entire city. Towards the end of the Q&A session, a reporter noted that a full evacuation of the city would require 72 hours and asked Nagin if a full evacuation was planned. Nagin's responded that a full evacuation was being considered but would be announced after more thought.

The evacuation that would require 72 hours was officially announced Sunday. This fell somewhat short of the 72-hour evacuation timeframe, so it is not surprising that the city was not completely evacuated. Of course, this little tidbit is not making big news because Nagin is now being oppressed by the man so he is sure to get re-elected because he's a hero even though his poor decision cost many people their lives.

Additionally, it is a mayor's job to keep the people under control. Instead, Nagin is acting as a catalyst, generating anger and unrest among citizens that are already disgruntled. This is dangerous and has motivated several attacks on federal relief forces that have ended in civilian casualties. However, by referencing The Man's constant oppression of black people (the hurricane was white and so were the levees, coincidence?) Nagin appeals to the majority population of New Orleans and secures himself another term as mayor.

Anyway, this only negates Nagin's anger as a force in my point. I still wanted to know why National Guardsmen were deployed so late. I stumbled upon this article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9189916/) and found my answer. National Guardsmen were not deployed because Kathleen Blanco did not want to give the federal government authority over New Orleans.

See, there is a process that has to be followed. The National Guard is under federal control and the federal government cannot send them until a state requests the National Guard to run things. When the National Guard comes to an emergency area, they get jurisdiction to do what is needed in the area, and the state government loses control for the duration of their stay. According to the article, Bush sent Blanco a proposal asking her to allow the federal government to take over the evacuation of New Orleans. Blanco and crew rejected the proposal because they felt like it was a "federal declaration of martial law" and a source claims the feeling was "if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals".

Additionally, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff noted that federal assets were deployed slowly "because our constitutional system really places the primary authority in each state with the governor."

This was a states' rights issue, which has been important throughout our nation's history and the cause of some of our largest tragedies. We fought a civil war over states' rights and now we've left people to starve and drown over states' rights.

FEMA Director Michael D. Brown has been under a lot of fire, but his statement makes a lot of sense given the poor judgement of Nagin and the territorial behavior of Blanco:
the mayor can order an evacuation and try to evacuate the city, but if the mayor does not have the resources to get the poor, elderly, the disabled, those who cannot, out, or if he does not even have police capacity to enforce the mandatory evacuation, to make people leave, then you end up with the kind of situation we have right now in New Orleans

So, in light of information I did not have due to insufficient research at the time of my post, I have decided the evil here was perpetrated by Nagin and Blanco and both of them are unfit for leadership positions.

Additionally, I found a few good points that explain why people remained in New Orleans despite the evacuation notice:

1. Not enough time/resources to enforce the evacuation
Nagin waited until it was too late and doomed the people he was responsible for protecting.

2. Apathy towards storms
A poster on another forum who grew up in New Orleans pointed out that the city is practically floating on water. He mentioned that whenever it would rain even half an inch, his street would flood and his friends would always swim in the street when a thunderstorm came. So any storm where severe flooding was supposed to be an issue were just business as usual for many residents. For the past 20 years or so, there have been so many "big ones" that just missed New Orleans that people grew tired of evacuating and decided that it would never happen to them. Also remember, had the levee not broken New Orleans would have weathered the storm with severe damage but conditions would not have been even close to the disaster after the levees were breached.

3. Poverty
Let's assume you are a member of the majority of the city, the impoverished masses that spend 98%-100% of their monthly wages on paying the bills. You have $30 to your name and no credit. You can't afford to drive away. If you purchase a Greyhound ticket, you won't have money for a hotel room. If you walk to another city, you'll have enough to stay in a cheap hotel for one night and nothing to buy food or water with. You have no choice but to stay in your house and pray for the best.

4. Darwin at work
(The above was the idealistic view of New Orleans' impoverished masses. This is the cynical view.)
The government doesn't give you enough on your check every week to buy but one carton of Newports and a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon. You can't get a job because you are black. If the government would just give you $25/hour you'd ride on a garbage truck but they don't believe in paying black people more than minimum wage. You can't buy a bus ticket or a hotel room because then you couldn't get cigarettes or beer. Plus, if the storm hits you know the police won't be able to keep up, so there's a good chance you can get more beer for free. The correct course of action is obvious.

So it does kind of make sense why many people stayed. Some people had no choice but to weather the storm.

Now, on to the "shoot-to-kill" order on looters. There is a difference between "gathering supplies for survival" and "looting". When a group of people emerges from a store carrying loaves of bread and bottles of water, I can guarantee you the response of the guardsmen will be different than when a team of people emerges with a TV. Many of the people that are still inside of New Orleans are there because looting is a great way to supplement their income. Food, water, and clothing are items that I can't blame someone for taking. Electronics, alcohol, and jewelry are items that no one there has a need for.

Here is an example of a man that should be shot:
Next to Freeman, Kenny Lason, 45, a dishwasher at Pat O'Brien's, a French Quarter restaurant famous for its signature "Hurricane" cocktail, took a long slurp out of a bottle of Korbel extra dry champagne. He broke a store window to get it, and he is not ashamed. "They wasn't giving us nothing," he said. "You got to live off the land."Alcohol is not a good thing to drink for survival. It makes your body require more water and makes you drunk. He stole that bottle not because he was thirsty, but because he knew it was expensive and he could get a buzz from it.

Still, why do people deserve to be shot? As mentioned, crime in the city is pretty bad right now. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/) Gangs are forming and firing on the people responsible for rebuilding New Orleans. I will not shed a single tear over the death of any of these criminals. The Superdome is emptied and anyone seeking help can get it by approaching authorities and asking for it. There is no legitimate reason for able-bodied individuals to remain in the city. Instead, the remainder of the populace is trying to start their own city within the ruins. This is unacceptable and I hope they enjoy their delusions that they will chase the National Guard out of New Orleans right up until bullets tear through their hearts.

Now, I have some choice words about the behaviors of people in areas NOT affected by the hurricane, but that will be another thread.

DarkPanther, you still haven't responded to me. What have you done to help hurricane victims? It would legitimize your troll post and simultaneously make me look bad if you would detail your hours of service for all of us.

*edit*

Also I am glad to hear about other countries helping out; I wish it were more prominent in the news because they deserve recognition for every dime they send.

[bigjoe]

On the subject of bad media towards black people, not all of it has been bad. This one black kid commandeered a school bus in order to save a bunch of people regardless of their ethnic background. Should be a lesson to us all.

I wouldnt be surprised if he'll have to do time, or at least community service, for what he did, knowing that he committed grand theft auto, but it was still a commendable act. He deserves a medal.


However, by referencing The Man's constant oppression of black people (the hurricane was white and so were the levees, coincidence?) Nagin appeals to the majority population of New Orleans and secures himself another term as mayor. Thats a bit of a low blow. Nagin is respected by white people as well. He aims to appeal to the people of his city, which are for the most part poor, not just black. And he has repeatedly expressed that he wishes the people of New Orleans to act in a calm and orderly fashion. People who claim he's a catalyst are just looking for a place to throw blame. The truth is, any situation like this would cause people to flip out, regardless of whether or not their leaders have made comments that are negative towards the federal government.


I have decided the evil here was perpetrated by Nagin and Blanco and both of them are unfit for leadership positions. I must say that I agree that Blanco was incompetent in her decision to not hand things over to the feds, but if proper funding were given by Bush or Clinton to build the levees, a lot less would have been spent than whats going to have to be spent now, and there wouldn't be this mess in the first place.

I do think all this fire towards the leadership is subliminally racist/sexist. Popular media says theres "no real leader." As would have it, New Orleans has a female governer, and a black mayor. If anyone wants to stick it to minority leadership, nows the perfect time. (In fact, it would be interesting to see posts about just that. Nows your chance to diss the hell out of the people you hate and get away with it, while still being politically correct!)

[theplustwo]

In fact, it would be interesting to see posts about just that. Nows your chance to diss the hell out of the people you hate and get away with it, while still being politically correct!What if you hate gay people?

[AtmaWeapon]

OK bigjoe, since Ray Nagin is a model mayor, I took the liberty of poking around a few sites, and here's a few quotes that show his nature.

Here's Nagin showing his concern for the citizens of New Orleans:(Source (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.levees/))

According to the mayor, Black Hawk helicopters were scheduled to pick up and drop massive 3,000-pound sandbags in the 17th Street Canal breach, but were diverted on rescue missions. Nagin said neglecting to fix the problem has set the city behind by at least a month.

"I had laid out like an eight-week to ten-week timeline where we could get the city back in semblance of order. It's probably been pushed back another four weeks as a result of this," Nagin said.

"That four weeks is going to stop all commerce in the city of New Orleans. It also impacts the nation, because no domestic oil production will happen in southeast Louisiana."From this quote, one can assume that Nagin is more concerned about getting commerce back to New Orleans than rescuing as many people as possible. He is also upset because he came up with his own plan to save the city and the Army Corps of Engineers is not following it. Given the dozens of engineering degrees Nagin has I am sure they are foolish for ignoring his instructions!

Here's another shining example of Nagin's concern for the citizens:(Source (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9063708/))
Mayor Ray Nagin ordered 1,500 police officers to leave their search-and-rescue mission Wednesday night and return to the streets of the beleaguered city to stop looting that has turned increasingly hostile.I can understand wanting to stop looters, but this is horribly in contrast to earlier quotes he made during his huge rant:(Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/02/AR2005090200670.html)
"The people of our city are holding on by a thread," Mayor Ray Nagin warned in a statement to CNN. "Time has run out. Can we survive another night? And who can we depend on? Only God knows."Oh, so now his compassion lies with the people?

I'm sorry, but Nagin is a two-faced snake and that is that. It has nothing to do with him being black or Blanco being a woman.

Pulling the race card is stupid BigJoe, let's go through the proof you'd need for that statement.

H1. Nagin is black.
H2. Blanco is a woman.
H3. Blanco and Nagin made mistakes.
H4. It is wrong to blame someone for a mistake if they are incompetent.
H5. Blanco is incompetent.
H6. Nagin is incompetent.

Now, at this point I'll commit a logical fallacy if I continue, which is precisely what happens when you claim Blanco and Nagin are taking fire because of racist/sexist sentiment. You are claiming that they are not to blame because of race or gender, which implicitly implies that their race or gender is known for making mistakes and should not be blamed. This is subliminally racist in itself.

Sorry, but Nagin and Blanco are incompetent independent of their race/gender.

[bigjoe]

Pulling the race card is stupid BigJoe, let's go through the proof you'd need for that statement. And I suppose you have the right to declare yourself the king of all information because you read a few internet articles and maybe watched some specials on TV.

I'm about as fond of the local government here as you are. Kathleen Blanco has had relations with Fidel Castro, and Nagin is guilty of switching political parties in order to improve his approval ratings. However, I thought that comment about levees and hurricanes being white was rude, regardless of whether or not you were being sarcastic.

I strongly dislike that so much finger pointing is going on during such a national crisis. Anyone from any branch of government can have as much blame as Louisiana's local government. FEMA was as unprepared to deal with this as the state's government was. All this disagreement is vain at a time when people should put their differences behind them. Apparently,our role model Mr.Bush and Nagin have discussed things and see eye to eye. Why are all the blamehounds still barking?

[AtmaWeapon]

The blamehounds are barking because Nagin stirred them up. This is why I said the mayor of the city should not be inciting anything. The media heard "mayor of New Orleans says the government isn't helping" and that will forever be what is remembered. Had Nagin remained a little more calm, there wouldn't be as much blame until the after-action investigation.

Instead, he kick-started the investigation before the bulk of the cleanup even started.

[fatcatfan]

Somewhere in one of these threads someone had something to say about a bill the Bush shot down to fund work on the levees and floodwalls in New Orleans. I was discussing this with some engineers in the office today, and the project would've taken billions of dollars and 20 to 30 years to complete. So had Bush approved the bill, the work would've been far from complete, and what work *had* been done would've been lost to the storm.

*shrug* For what that's worth.

[deathbyhokie]

Somewhere in one of these threads someone had something to say about a bill the Bush shot down to fund work on the levees and floodwalls in New Orleans. I was discussing this with some engineers in the office today, and the project would've taken billions of dollars and 20 to 30 years to complete. So had Bush approved the bill, the work would've been far from complete, and what work *had* been done would've been lost to the storm.

*shrug* For what that's worth.

actually, if i'm not mistaken, the bill was to fund a survey to determine what to do regarding the leeves, and the survey wouldn't have even been started yet.

[Dechipher]

Yeah that was me. I wasn't clear on the specifics. I'm glad you cleared that up.

[AtmaWeapon]

I am suspending further opinions until it blows over and an official investigation is started. Every single time I see a news article that convinces me one way, I see another that contradicts the first one.

For example, I had Nagin nailed as a jerk when an article pointed out (and had AP satellite imagery) of a fleet yard full of school buses in New Orleans that could have reached the Superdome and been used to evacuate it.

However, investigation of the city's investigation plan revealed that the mobilization of civilian vehicles was FEMA's jurisdiction, so Nagin couldn't have used them even if he wanted to. Additionally, FEMA was unaware of the bus yard.

So it's going to be hard to point the blame until we get a chance to look at it with hindsight.

[theplustwo]

It's probably safe to say that most gigantic disasters like this don't have a single person or entity to blame for. Other than God, maybe. Everybody now: "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?"

[DarkPanther]

Everybody now: "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?"
God and Bush hate black people.

[Monica]

Someone quoted this story on another forum and I thought it seemed interesting enough to share. Didn't know which thread it goes in though so I just chose this one...


Written by Big Block Stingray on supra forums

Drove into HELL (New Orleans) last night... Sensitive types stay out

Thought maybe some might enjoy my adventure..

First off I wanted to post what REALLY is going on in this city. Please don't get this thread locked people. The news stations are only showing a minuscule of reality. This post may offend some people but I will post what I saw, like it or not it is REALITY.
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Well last night I was watching the 6pm news when they announced the 17th street canal pumps failed as well as another break in the levee. My house is right off St. Charles Ave. and up to 6pm yesterday is was the only part of the city that was dry. Since the pumps failed and the new break St. Charles Ave. would be under 9ft of water in the next 12-15hrs. My brother and I felt if we wanted to save anything we had to leave NOW. We loaded up flashlights, rope, our medical ID's, both our .45 Glocks, 2 shotguns and rode out. En-route we listened to the radio which broad casted all the news about the looters and what not, in hindsight it was a mistake. My mother didn't want us to go by dad who is a Vietnam vet told to be safe and "shoot to kill" if it ever comes to that.

One the way we had to pass 5-6 checkpoints to allow entry into the city. We stated we were medical personnel who were activated, showed our ID and off we went. On the radio reports were coming in about the officer who was shot in the head, the 2 gunman who opened fired on the NOPD station, and how looters were carjacking cars to get out of the city. This started making my brother nervous and giving seconds thoughts.

Anyway we get to the city and it looks like a freaking war zone. The best visual I can give is the movie "Blackhawk Down" when all the Somalians are rushing the city. They are people EVERYWHERE, they are pissed off, and all have weapons, 2X4's, Axes, and guns. If this wasn't bad enough we are 2 white boys in a truck in a sea several hundred armed pissed off blacks. There wasn't a white person to be found. I couldn't get over the little 8-10yr old kids with weapons, I ever saw one carry a claw hammer!

These people were absolutely nuts rammed trucks(stolen I'm sure) in to jewelry stores stealing items, they were tearing apart Wal-Mart carrying out TV's, Playstations, DVD players, etc. One lady was wheeling out an entire rack of merchandise, not sure what it was but sure wasn't clothes for food. They were all laughing and carrying on like it's freaking Christmas.

We got stuck in traffic when we see the group of guys walking down the street w/ AK-47's, at that point the "pucker factor" kicked in, a couple Glocks and shotguns were no match for that. We haul azz trying to get to Uptown when we see these people chopping down the front door w/ an axe of this $4-5 million dollar mansion on ST. Charles Ave. I was just in total awe because it was so surreal. Making matters worse it's 11pm at night there is no electricity and you really can see anything or anyone until they are right up on you.

Our plan was to be in and out in 30min, this included putting his Harley on the trailer. It would have taken me 5-10min tops to get my stuff, all I wanted was my pictures from college, my clothes/shoes, and my computer tower. Well he got scared saying we are going to get jumped while putting the bike on the trailer. Keep in mind this is the only area in the city that is dry. So just like rats who move to higher ground these people were doing the same. Word must have gotten out that Uptown was dry so there started to be a large influx of people.

Needless to say he wanted to go home rather than take our chances. While it was the smart thing to do I was beyond infuriated w/ him because we made it this far. He just kept saying our lives aren't worth it. So we turned around, our next challenge was getting out of the city while not getting jacked. Reports came out that people were jumping in the back of truck holding the drivers at gunpoint. Traffic started to slow so I just nailed it got out as fast as I could.

Even though he was the voice of reason I'm still pissed. All I have is my life and the clothes on my back. I lost my house(which is now 9ft underwater) ALL my clothes, TV, computer, furniture, and photo albums and videos from childhood and college. What makes this worse is my brother owned the house and I was a tenant and I didn't have renters insurance, hindsight is 20/20.

I also hope everyone of the ****ing looters get Tetanus, E-Coli and F*(KING drown. I'm serious I really hope the all die for what they were doing to the city, killing people, and destroying homes. Never in my life have I ever seen people act live savages, it was truly sicking................





Here is the *update* thread I posted today...

Well I attempted fate again and went back to the city. Didn't want to start a flame fest so I figured I'd post afterward. Most of you will not/do not understand WHY I went back but I think some will. This time we went in broad daylight and initially there was to be five but ended up three. We were armed w/ two pistols each(plus 2 back up) and each having 12-gague shot guns (Police/Military spec Remington 870). Once again we were force through 5 checkpoints had to show ID. At the last checkpoint the State Trooper asked "Are you carrying" to which we said yes and he then replied "Good, you may have to use them."

Overall the Westbank of the city is pretty dry, surprisingly. We exited at Tchoupitoulas and it is right near the Superdome w/people everywhere. The road was clear and we didn't stop. First we went to my buddy's house on Magazine which was dry as a bone, no water what so ever. My bro and I set up a perimeter while Lance went inside to get his stuff. Heilo's were everywhere, Coast Guard, local oil company, Huey's and even Blackhawks. I'm outside and these two people pass pushing a shopping car and the women is staring at the gun. She said "Damn dat's a big 'ole gun, I just smiled and shook my head "yes". A truck full of National Guards pass by and when they saw us they cheered "Who Hoo" I'm assuming b/c the guns. What was frightening was they they didn't have any guns! We finished there and went on to my house. I was pretty pumped because Lance's house was dry and only a couple blocks down from mmine on the other side of St. Charles. Well my joy shortly faided when every street was covered with water and 200yr old oak branches. We turn the corner and see one of the famous historic New Orleans homes, I mean MANSION to be inhabited by a family who OBVIOUSLY did not live there. I mean this is easily a $5-6 million dollar home and these people are sitting on the porch, kids playing football in the yard, clothes strung out on the lawn. I just couldn't believe it.

The closest I could get to the house without submerging the truck was 5 blocks,great. Water was up to my waist and I'm 5'10. At one point we had o "tightrope walk" across a cemetery wall because the water was so deep it was easily over our heads. As we are walking we are passing families sitting on the porch just watching us, I felt sorry for them. We finally make it to the house and there is about 4ft of water in front which is good because the house is 6ft off the ground. I was happy the house was dry and not looted. We check the house and it's safe and we grab the bare essential, clothes, pictures, documents. I had to leave my new TV, computer, stereo, etc. Well I had about 50lbs in each hand which I soon learned was too much. I'm not weak by any means but carrying 80-100lbs that many blocksabove water was WORK!. Sadly we couldn't get the Harley, but for now it is safe and dry. We gave the family on the porch a couple gallons of water from the truck on the way back.

Next we go to Lance's GF's house and while I'm outside making sure everything is cool a neighbor walks up w/ a sidearm and asked if the Military has arrived yet. I tell him about the troops that rode by earlier and he stated he's shot at several people trying to loot neighbor's houses and cars. He was out of 12 gauge buckshot so I gave him a box.

So we are loaded up and heading toward the bridge when we pass the Wal-Mart on Tchoupitoulas and see two soldiers guarding the store. We pull up to talk to him and I guess he saw the shotguns and he IMMEDIATELY drew his weapon. I'm still now certain what type of fully automatic rifle it was (no M16 or anything like that). Anyway we all put our hands up and ask him if it was safe to exit up ahead and if he needed anything like water, ammo, etc. He said "I'll take all the ammo you can spare". I asked if they are low already and he stated that in anticipation of the storm they sent all the weapons and ammo to Jackson,Ms and it flooded before they could get to them. So THAT is why none of the Guardsmen are carrying. We gave him all the ammo we had minus what was in our clips. So they ended up w/ around 5-6 boxes of buckshot and 150-200 rounds of hollow point .45

He then said 'Be careful up ahead they are rioting at the Superdome. Whatever you do DO NOT STOP. We leave and take the on ramp and infront of us is 200-300 people blocking the on ramp trying to get out of the city. We put out guns to the windows(they have been carjacking every car leaving the city) held the horn and never dropped below 15mph. People were moving away then rushing the truck but after seeing the guns they backed off. I really felt bad for some of those people because they looked tired and have a looong walk ahead of them but we weren't taking any chances.

[Lutraphobiac]

Looting things that are needed for survival is pretty justified in my mind. As for the people looting luxuries, while I don't condone it, I can certainly understand their mindset. They have lost what little they were able to put together on thier "long hours and lousy paycheck" job and now they have an opportunity to get a little something back. A person in this world is valued sadly but what he owns. They just want some of that back.

I guess I should update this. Not really changing my view. Situations like this bring out the best and worst in people and I admit that some people are just plain bad. Those guys running about making chaos are assholes and I despise them just as much as anybody else.

Thanks for posting that Monica. Even though I knew that the situation in New Orleans was out of control. It was still somewhat shocking to see a first hand account.