State of Zelda Classic

[Freedom]

Maybe I'm out of line here...
I just completed my first quest using the 2.10 from start to finish, and wasn't too happy with how things worked out over-all.

I see great things happening in development, new additions and such, but my concern is a stable release that doesn't have all these bugs.

I see talk of a complete new re-write, and jman adding new features like crazy, and wonder if I'm just wasting time building with what is available now.
I now have 9 quests out and with each new version my old quests won't work in the new and become obsolete, not to mention the fact that with each new version you pull hair out figuring ways around new bugs which then cause more bugs due to how you had to get around the first bug.

I guess my question is this, is there going to be a bug free release, or are things going to continue as they have with each new release just sporting new bugs that you have to learn all over as to how to get around.

I've gotten to a point here now, like so many others have in the past, that it may be time just to give up on building quests, and just play around building tiles and playing with cool new features, and hope that at some point in the future a bug free version might actually exist.

I'm not trying to step on any toes or anything, just trying to get what info I can so I can try and make an informed decision as to what I want to do next.

[ShadowTiger]

Well, Freedom, those are all phenominal points, and I'll be darned if they don't perk up some ears.

Let's hope that jman's rewrite will be exactly that bug-free release that we're all hoping for. ;) As he's stated, this current version, is extremely difficult to add / modify code, as it was rather inscrutible. With this rewrite, jman has stated that since it's much easier to work with, adding features will be infinitely easier.

I may be exaggerating things a but, but it would be MUCH easier, and that much more possible, to work with this new version and fix bugs than with the current version. Thus, it may be better that we simply wait until this rewrite is bug-free to build quests in.

I'm not sure how much that deals with the problem of upgrading quests, but perhaps this isn't the point. Maybe the point of the current operation is dealing with all of the problems on hand, and we can start constructing quests after the rewrite has been completed, due to code compatibility, and already being easier to manage.

Despite my limited knowledge of programming, perhaps you could just copy bits of code to make things easier. Not that you're not doing that already. What do I know of the process, after all.

[jman2050]

There are two aspects of this rewrite that will minimize crazy bugs like the ones we're used to seeing.

1) As I've stated, the engine will be completely overhauled to allow for more flexibility in adding features. Many of the previous bugs were very specific in nature, and hopefully the new structure will prevent this from happening too much in the future.

2) The engine will also be designed in a way that... well... let's just say that if there's a bug with the way the game plays, it will mos likely be the quest maker's fault, not the program's :)

Also note that a public version WILL NOT be released unless it is stable. Also note, however, that these are beta releases, and thus are not expected to be stable in any way shape or form.

[fatcatfan]

A lot will depend on how the new engine shapes up, Freedom. I'd like to maintain 2.11, fixing bugs in it and making service releases. However, if the engine works well with old quests, seems to be more rapidly developed (and I think it will, with a new codebase), and overall more stable, there may be no need to maintain the old version.

[Freedom]

fatcatfan,
I'd like to see a stable release too that will work with the older quests before a new overhaul with a lot of new features are added, and I know I'm not alone.
I thought that was the game plan before jman was added, then it seemed that got thrown out and new features were the topic of the day, at least that seemed to be what everyone was saying.

I'd like to see the new overhaul and new features as much as anyone, but just don't want to spend months working on another quest that I'll end up being disappointed with again, so I was just trying to get an idea as to which way the wind is blowing now.

I think I'll just stick with beta testing new versions and working on tiles and a tileset for now and hold off on quest building, maybe I can be more helpful finding bugs that way.

[Dart Zaidyer]

The trouble with the last few public versions is that with every release, there's always one bug that will play havoc with quests built on an older version. For 1.92, it was practically blowing apart the original design of the 1.90 quests. For 184, it was the "new" sidewarp continue that nobody ever anticipated. And for 2.10, well... It's not so much the quest-breakers as it is the outrageous instability caused by the Allegro version used.

I think 2.11 should concentrate more on addressing these issues than adding more new features. We've got plenty to go around at this point: Chests, Link Tile functionality, combo organization, preview mode, new subscreen styles, etc. They should be finished up and then every bug should be eliminated before a new feature is added. Because as we all know, every new feature will create a new and bizarre bug somewhere else.

[jman2050]

Because as we all know, every new feature will create a new and bizarre bug somewhere else.

Which is precisely the point. We can't support the current code base forever, nor did DN, fcf, or me plan to do so. From what I've read and seen a full rewrite was being considered a long time ago.

[JayeM]

I think 2.11 should concentrate more on addressing these issues than adding more new features. Amen! I've been saying this for a long time. I'm still working with beta 163, because everything since then has some seriously objectionable bug. This is what's keeping established questmakers from making new quests...practically the only new quest submissions I'm seeing are from newbies. Why is it so difficult for the programmers to work on bug fixes without getting the urge to add new features, which lead to new bugs? Save the new features for the updated code version and give ZC a little stability again.

[bigjoe]

I support 2.11 if its possible to eliminate all of the nasty bugs in the current code base. And theres no telling how many crept in with the new features (hopefully not many)

[Solaris_Omega]

IMO, the only features that really need to be added after this point are ones that make questing making easier. I almost wonder myself if ZC is becoming another helpless victim to feature creep. JMan is doing a great job adding features that make questing developing easier, and I think the re-write is a grand idea. How much further do we really need to take ZC?

[Masamune]

IMO, the only features that really need to be added after this point are ones that make questing making easier. I almost wonder myself if ZC is becoming another helpless victim to feature creep. JMan is doing a great job adding features that make questing developing easier, and I think the re-write is a grand idea. How much further do we really need to take ZC?

To the point where we're able to clone Super Mario 64.

[JayeM]

I think Solaris Omega is right. Perhaps, after a bug-free 2.11, Zelda Classic should be considered finalized. The code-rewrite, with more new features, should be called something else. After all, Zelda Classic started as a Zelda 1 clone with editor. It's already gone way beyond that. (I think I suggested this before too.)

It's already gotten to the point where it's difficult for newby questmakers to work with. Maybe we could keep it for beginning questmakers, and make the code-rewrite for experienced questmakers.

[Freedom]

I knew if enough time passed I'd agree with JayeM on something ;)

As for the new quest makers, until they will read the tutorials that so many have invested so much time in making, they'll still have nothing but trouble.
look at the questions I've been answering over the last two days.
"my doors won't work", "link is starting in the upper left corner", "Link goes to screen 80", "my strings don't work" .......

[jman2050]

Darnit, won't you let me, DN, and fcf at least finish the rewrite before you start speculating. It's actually rather bone-chilling. XD XD XD

I've taken all of this into account. This rewrite thing wasn't exactly spur of the moment, and while I admit I myself became a victim of feature-creep with ZC (and I apologize for that), that will be corrected, I assure you. Nevertheless, we will be releasing 2.11 bug-free and stable, with nearly all the cool features you've seen so far. And I think it's actually good that this topic was made, as criticism only helps the design and implementation process that much more. So keep the comments coming, but try to stay away from praising or decrying the rewrite until you all have a solid idea as to what's going on with it. That's all.

[JayeM]

You can always count on us for criticism. ;)

[Solaris_Omega]

You can always count on us for criticism. ;)
Precisely ^^, its not that we are unhappy with the you guys Jman, we apreciate all that you guys do for ZC. We just wanna make sure you know our thoughts too. :)

[Sephiroth]

Precisely ^^, its not that we are unhappy with the you guys Jman, we apreciate all that you guys do for ZC. We just wanna make sure you know our thoughts too. :)
Yes.. When there is any type of program, be it a simple php code to a complex system os scripts.. You will always have people suggesting this and that. :)