2.11 Beta 3 Progress

[Dark Nation]

1. New psuedo-isometric drawing mode. Like so:

http://darknation.armageddongames.net/isometric/isometric.htm (100k of pictures)

Thoughts? This is just something I scraped together while I was thinking about the best approach to fix some other bugs. Basically, you have to have a set of 48 combos in a row, each one representing a combination of shore and/or corner in a certain order. All of the above pics are (nam), btw.

[bigjoe]

I could see this being extremely useful, but it might be a pain to set up.

[Cloral]

Awesome! That could be used for lots of things: paths, grass, pits, etc.
How does one set up the combos for this? Do they have to be placed in a specific order?

This might be a bit too complex, but would it be possible to set this thing up to work with dungeon walls? Something like that could really cut down on the time it takes to design a quest. Maybe overworld cliffs too, but I'm probably asking for too much right now.
Also, what happens if you leave isometric mode, screw up the lake somehow (like add a dock tile), and then come back? Would it try to replace the dock tile?

[ShadowTiger]

One Question.


Does It Work With Dungeon Wall Placement Too? O.O
(As Cloral Had Asked.)

Holy .... This is ... so darn cool! You've just saved questmakers an utterly amazing hassle! Thank You! O_O

So, how does the layout of these tiles work? I noticed a fairly complex combo page there. Additionally, which combo are you actually using to draw this setup with? Is it only one combo that you're using? O_O

[Solaris_Omega]

Impressive, I have seen things like this in RPG maker. I can't wait to see how this goes

[Dark Nation]

Yes, the combos have to be in a specific order. All of the combos are water (or path or whatever you are 'carving' with) combos (except for the last one, which is a land combo, and it's type is set to 'none'. The first combo is completely water. The other 46 are water with the following land pieces on them:

Top Right Corner
Top Left Corner
Top Left Corner, Top Right Corner
Bottom Left Corner
Bottom Left Corner, Top Right Corner
Bottom Left Corner, Top Left Corner
Bottom Left Corner, Top Left Corner, Top Right Corner
Bottom Right Corner
Bottom Right Corner, Top Right Corner
Bottom Right Corner, Top Left Corner
Bottom Right Corner, Top Left Corner, Top Right Corner
Bottom Right Corner, Bottom Left Corner
Bottom Right Corner, Bottom Left Corner, Top Right Corner
Bottom Right Corner, Bottom Left Corner, Top Left Corner
Bottom Right Corner, Bottom Left Corner, Top Left Corner, Top Right Corner
Right Side
Right Side, Top Left Corner
Right Side, Bottom Right Corner
Right Side, Bottom Right Corner, Top Left Corner
Top Side
Top Side, Bottom Left Corner
Top Side, Bottom Right Corner
Top Side, Bottom Left Corner, Bottom Right Corner
Top Side, Right Side
Top Side, Right Side, Bottom Left Corner
Left Side
Left Side, Top Right Corner
Left Side, Bottom Right Corner
Left Side, Top Right Corner, Bottom Right Corner
Left Side, Right Side
Left Side, Top Side
Left Side, Top Side, Bottom Right Corner
Left Side, Top Side, Right Side
Bottom Side
Bottom Side, Top Right Corner
Bottom Side, Top Left Corner
Bottom Side, Top Left Corner, Top Right Corner
Bottom Side, Right Side
Bottom Side, Right Side, Top Left Corner
Bottom Side, Top Side
Bottom Side, Top Side, Right Side
Bottom Side, Left Side
Bottom Side, Left Side, Top Right Cormer
Bottom Side, Left Side, Right Side
Bottom Side, Left Side, Top Side
Bottom Side, Left Side, Top Side, Right Side

Basically, it's a binary progression. Starting with the top right corner and progressing counter clockwise, then going through the sides, starting with the right and going counter clockwise. So, there are 8 land pieces to go through. Why, then, aren't there 256 combos? Because a side piece uses up the corners that it touches. For instance, the combo with the left and right sides touching land are touching the top right, top left, bottom left, and bottom right corners, so that one combo is used for 16 different neighboring combo possibilities.

And yes, I was drawing with only one combo, the isometric mode just changed it on the fly as it was being placed on the screen. Also, yes, you could use this for paths, grass, pits, or anything where you have two things that need to smoothly border each other.

As for dungeon walls, if it's a 1-tile high wall, it might work, but the dungeon walls in Zelda are generally 2 tiles high. It may be possible to modify the code to accomodate 2-tier changes like that, but it would exponentially increase the amount of combos you would have to set up (might be worth it, though). In any event, I'll look into it.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this idea for a while now (ever since I first saw isometric maps in StarCraft) and just recently got around to coming up with the algorithm for the combo placement.

[Blonde799]

That's amazing. That could save a lot of time making complex landscapes. I guess that makes up for the time to set everything up.

[LinktheMaster]

This could seriously prove to be a great timesaver. I can't wait to test this out. :)

[Dart Zaidyer]

This feature is nice, but did you fix any of the annoying, nonsensical bugs yet? Stuff like IT playback in ZQuest and the SPC music playing back at the wrong pitch again. That's driving me nuts.
How'd it get reverted anyway?

[Rydia]

Wow, that is totally awesome DN!!! This is gonna make it so quests can be built much much quicker, especially since it isn't limited to water combos! I look forward to testing this. I can't wait to see what other sweet features you come up with.

[Cloral]

Actually, I think walls could be less complicated than the lake type, assuming we enforce LttP-style walls. The way I see it, in the LttP-style, 1 tile wide walls are not valid, so immediately all those types could be removed. Really there are the following:
4 striaght wall sections (top, bottom, left, right)
4 inside corners
4 outside corners
for a total of 12 tiles. There are 2 levels (since the LttP-style walls are 2 tiles thick), so you double this to 24 tiles. Then add the ceiling, floor, and low ceiling (say someone fills in a 3x3 area, the 'low ceiling' is what you would put in the middle), for a grand total of 27 tiles.

[jman2050]

Nice DN... as for the other bugs, we'll get to working on them. I'm very interested in seeing this code and tinkering with it for a bit DN :P

[Raichu86]

That's very impressive! Great work! It looks like the combo pages I worked so hard on developing for the Pure tileset might need some revision. :laughing:

What I don't like about it is that the combos will have to be in a certain order for it to work. Maybe the ease of building with it will be so great that a little mess won't be a problem.

[Cloral]

Definately you should be able to have a combo represent a series somewhere else. Think RPG Maker - you've got things like water and dirt that are represented by a single tile. The user doesn't see the various edges, and we could simulate that by allowing the series of combos to be somewhere else.

[Raichu86]

It would be most awesome would be if a single combo could contain information for all the tiles in the series, each configurable with their own walkability and combo type. But considering DN mentioned something about running out of space for combos without significant effort to allow for more, I bet that's a possibility.

Maybe we should stop before Dark Nation grows frustrated by our ungratefulness. :laughing:

[Jigglysaint]

Sorry I haven't posted lately, my interenet is busted and my dad's computer isn't suitable for long term forum usage.

Ayway, pretty cool isometic mode. This is exactly what we need to make things easier to draw.

[jman2050]

To show we're still making progress...

2. Fixed the bug where undoing on the tile selector screen in Zquest would remove the first few pixels of every tile.
3. Fixed the bug where selecting tiles and then sliding them using ALT in the tile selector results in garbage data.
4. Made a change to the way scrolling warps mess with the continue data. Not entirely sure if it will work, but you'll have to test to see.
5. The original behavior of the wand has been reverted. Fireballs haven't been fixed yet.
6. Added functionality to view flag placement in preview mode. Press 'Z' instead of 'F' to do so.
7. Added functionality in preview mode to trigger normal secrets and enemy secrets seperately, per the behavior of ZC. On rooms with Enemies->Secret defined, 'S' will trigger all secrets specified by the action flags (burn, bomb, etc) while 'E' will trigger flags 16-31 as if all enemies had been defeated.
8. Added a makeshift help area to remind you all of what the hotkeys in preview mode do.
9. Fixed the bug where exiting preview mode while timed warps are enabled and then entering it again causes the screen to instantly warp to the next screen.
10. Added a 'reset' combo, which when stepped on essentially resets everything about the state of the room (enabled secrets, item pickups, and chests/lockblocks to be specific), as well as reloads the room.
11. Moving a combo or combos in the combo selector will now change all combo->next references that apply.

More later.

[idontknow]

sweet!

I like 7, 8, 10, & 11.

Also, can you explain what is meant by 5 "the behaviour of the wand has been reverted"

[Blonde799]

I think he just fixed the bugs with the wand and possibly the fireballs associated.

[ShadowTiger]

Also, can you explain what is meant by 5 "the behaviour of the wand has been reverted"Remember the Homing Wand from 1.92 Beta 178? Well, .... In 2.11, it's back. ;) jman simply reverted the wand back to well, ... the wand. :p


10. Added a 'reset' combo, which when stepped on essentially resets everything about the state of the room (enabled secrets, item pickups, and chests/lockblocks to be specific), as well as reloads the room.This would be excellent for bosses. Holy Carp.

And thank you for fixing the tile page errors. :) We can finally draw in it again! ^_^ And thank you for #11. That must have been difficult.

[Nick]

10. Added a 'reset' combo, which when stepped on essentially resets everything about the state of the room (enabled secrets, item pickups, and chests/lockblocks to be specific), as well as reloads the room.


OMG! Awesome! I've wanted some way to get the item in a room again for a long time. It'd be useful for mini games. :)

I also like how the isometric mode is looking. It seems a little messy on the combos, but it would probably be fairly useful for various things.

[ShadowTiger]

OMG! Awesome! I've wanted some way to get the item in a room again for a long time. It'd be useful for mini games. :)
... ... Oooooh ... Oh No ... ... That's something we may have forgotten. Could there be a way to exclude the item from reappearing? (Via a Screen Flag Check Box.) I can't think up an example now, but obviously it's the sort of thing that comes up when you're in the middle of designing the item-based puzzle. :shrug: I mean, we don't want the player to be able to pick up an infinite amount of magic containers. > >.

[jman2050]

... ... Oooooh ... Oh No ... ... That's something we may have forgotten. Could there be a way to exclude the item from reappearing? (Via a Screen Flag Check Box.) I can't think up an example now, but obviously it's the sort of thing that comes up when you're in the middle of designing the item-based puzzle. :shrug: I mean, we don't want the player to be able to pick up an infinite amount of magic containers. > >.

Yes. In fact, I could probably do that right now if I wasn't supposed to be working :P

[Praethus]

Wow. The reset combo is like a dream come true... Now we can have true fairy fountains where the player can pick up multiple fairies from the same room. And of course, mini games will be all the rage now.

[Dark Nation]

12. An extension of the isometric drawing mode, the dungeon carving mode. Like so:

http://darknation.armageddongames.net/dungeon/dungeon.htm (377k in pictures)

Thoughts?

[Rydia]

OMG!!! I'm the first to view that! I think that is so bad ass DN! The isometric drawing mode can be used for almost anything. ^_^

jamn, a reser flag is wonderful! Beta 3 is gonna rock. Super work guys. ;)

[ShadowTiger]

...


* KHUGGLES Dark Nation *

OMG. You made a whole page to describe that. You two are so amazing. O.O When this is publically released, I can guarantee many bootkissings from the community.

Oh man, I forgot that this would work on layers too. (I mean, obviously.) I'm telling you, this is the beta that changes ZC Forever.

[LinktheMaster]

Awesome. This version of ZC will easily one of the biggest upgrades in recent history. Everyone will be so excited when this reaches the public. :) Great... great job. I just love the possibilities that the isometric mode can do. :)

[bigjoe]

Thoughts? Incredible. Now add tree mode or something... :tongue:

Seriously, though, this will make dungeon design a lot easier. The effort needed to make complex floor patterns will be virtually eliminated.

EDIT:By the way, is it just me, or has ever since jman became a developer, Dark Nation been putting more effort into it?

Is it teamwork.... or competition? :evil:

(Or maybe DNs been working on it all along just doesnt post so much.)

[ShadowTiger]

It's Dark Nation. ;) You never quite know when dealing with greatness. http://suburbia.gerudo.net/forums/style_emoticons/Default/SmileWink.gif


Though, to tell you the truth, a "Tree" Mode would be fantastic. o_o It would automatically add the combo above the combo you're placing to layer 3 of that screen. That would be too complex to do though, I'll bet. But in all seriousness, it would perhaps cut down on the questmaker's building time EVEN MORE than isometric OR Dungeon mode does! O_O ... ... OMG.

I mean, to build a dungeon, you don't even have to refer to layers, and all the combos are (generally) on the same area anyway. God... Wow.

[Cloral]

Two words:

Fuck yeah!

That's exactly what I was talking about! You are the man, DN!

[fatcatfan]

EDIT:By the way, is it just me, or has ever since jman became a developer, Dark Nation been putting more effort into it?

Is it teamwork.... or competition? :evil:

(Or maybe DNs been working on it all along just doesnt post so much.)I'll try to start carrying my weight around here too. I'm beginning to get into gear.

[jman2050]

EDIT:By the way, is it just me, or has ever since jman became a developer, Dark Nation been putting more effort into it?

Is it teamwork.... or competition? :evil:

(Or maybe DNs been working on it all along just doesnt post so much.)

Of course not!

...

Or is it?

BWA HA HA HA

I guess since DN has shown his hand, time to show mine once more

13. Room State Tiering - A mucho grande thanks to PolygonX8 for this suggestion, so be sure to huggle him when he's on IRC :P

How it works: You know how to make an event work, you have to make a screen on one dmap, use a kill all enemies flag, make it a boss room, make another room on another dmap a boss room, set up the level numbers, blah blah blah? Well, I'm here to tell you that the Boss flag event method is now completely and totally obsolete! How, you may ask?

It's actually extremely simple. Every room now has two new properties: a next screen and next map definition. It is editable in the room data in ZQ (incidentally, with this change the screen data has been changed to two tabs: the first holding all the flags and the second consisting of special data like this. Also note that the timed warp tics dialog has been moved to the special data tab). Basically, whenever you pick up an item, trigger a secret, or trigger lock blocks or chests, it will not only save that part of the room state in the current room, but also in the room defined by the new properties. So if screen 10 on map 3 has screen 74 of map 5 defined, triggering secrets on screen 10 map 3 (assuming it's an overworld or cave map) will also set secrets triggered in the subsequent screen, ready for when you enter that screen.

Drooling? Well I'm not finished yet :)

When secrets are triggered (or another valid activity, but I'll just use secrets from here on out) on one screen, it triggers the secrets on the subsequent screen. However it doesn't end there. If the subsequent screen has a next map and next screen defined, it will also trigger the secrets in that room as well. If that room has a next map and next screen defined... well, you see where this is going. The chain will continue until a null reference is found, or the screen you're currently on is defined somewhere in the chain.

Furthermore a loop can be defined for all-encompassing events. Say, on map 1, screen 00 points to 01, 01 points to 02, 02 points to 03, and 03 points back to 00. What will happen is that triggering secrets on any of those 4 rooms will trigger secrets for all of them. This, combined with the wonderful reset combo (HAH, you see, I had a good reason for making that right now :) ) will make stuff like, oh say, red/blue toggle switch dungeons to be possible without having to worry about synchronizing maps. Oh yeah, did I mention that this also works on dungeon doors as well. Unlocking a key door in one room will cause a shutter to open in another room (provided they are on the same side of the screen).

A few more things still need to be addressed, but this is currently where we stand. And to think, I have some more evil plans laying around that I plan to implement >:D

BEAT THAT DN!!! >_> <_< >_> <_<

j/k ... or am I?

[*b*]

global screen triggers, two versions of isometric drawing, and you still won't add screen-embeded layers *pouts* (no, I'm not going to stop bitching about it till I get my way)

still, those are excellent additions

[Cloral]

Heh. I know I'm asking for a lot here, but to make those 'crystal switches' perfect, we would need 2 things:

* The 'one trigger per action' quest rule I mentioned a while back - each action can only trigger secrets once, so like you swing your sword, and it only activates the crystal switch once.
* A new type of trigger that is activated by the sword, hammer, and bombs (smack doesn't work for this because it is also triggered by the boomerang, arrows, and pretty much everything else).

But even without these, that should be awesome.

[Blonde799]

I just had a joygasm. Those additions are fantastic! :clap: I would whine about all kinds of suggestions, but you guys are doing a great job. Like someone else said, I think this will be the biggest version of ZC ever.

[Cloral]

Not to be a downer, but I just had a thought... how would this work in a dungeon? Normally when you trigger secrets in a dungeon room and leave and come back, they've reset. Seems to me this would suffer from the same issue, meaning that such triggers could easily get out-of-sync between the various rooms.

[Praethus]

What if we add a "Secrets act like Cave" option to the DMap menu. That could make Dungeons act like Caves as far as secrets go, but still retain the rest of the dungeon qualities, such as doors and the 2 squares of "wall" that surrounds dungeon screens.

[Nick]

I take a nap for a few hours and come back to this. :eek:

I thought the earlier additions blew my mind enough... then dungeon carving mode and room state tiering happened. Just... whoa. :)

Just need some more bug fixes and I think people will be fairly happy. :blah:

[fatcatfan]

I hope to focus on the debugging once I really get things swinging.

[jman2050]

Not to be a downer, but I just had a thought... how would this work in a dungeon? Normally when you trigger secrets in a dungeon room and leave and come back, they've reset. Seems to me this would suffer from the same issue, meaning that such triggers could easily get out-of-sync between the various rooms.

Well, dungeon type dmaps don't have permanent secrets anyway, and it'd probably be best to leave it that way. So I figured quest makers would just design around that little issue.

Do note, however, that the room state tiering will also affect dungeon doors, like I said, and it will still work with lock blocks and item pickups. So secrets are really the only thing as far as dungeons are concerned (in fact, come to think of it, doing permanent secrets in dungeons wouldn't work well anyway. has to do with the code, but just take my word for it :P)

[idontknow]

This is all so amazing! The room tiering is my exact idea! I suggested it as this: "Go to screen data, type in values for the map & screen of where you want other secrets to trigger" (or something like that! :) ) I can't wait for the next full public beta!