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Toolie
06-05-2005, 09:55 PM
I've talked to a few servicemen who have recently returned from their tour in Iraq, and most cases I heard a slightly different story then that of what a lot of the media will tell you is going on over there.

A former Army guy that lives near me vividly described atrocities that Americans were commiting against civilians over there. Random shootings, screwing around with people at checkpoints (involving rifles and death, of course), et cetera. His viewpoint is that he is absolutely convinced that whatever reason we went in there for is gone now - at this point it's only to stabilize the region and bring in oil to power our economy.

And that's close to my opinion. Not quite, because I think we went in there for oil to begin with along with some other secondary objectives - like counter-terrorism and "democracy".

North Korea, a far greater risk with a far more psychotic and unstable dictator in a far more sensitive region of the world is left alone in his oil-free country, while we amass a force to secure energy where it's available under the flag of "Freedom (tm)" and counter-terrorism. I'm sure they are added benefits as well that are hardly overlooked, but it's obvious the main driving reason to be there is energy.

...Not that I disagree with that, though....

Our country will absolutely fall apart - torn from our warm economic womb and slaughtered - without the gooey placenta that is energy. The EU and China would have no problem in aborting us once our economy starts slowing to a grind and crumbling without energy.

Unfortunately, since most American's would rather spend thier money on Alex Rodriguez and the new Jay-Z CD (or whatever), we are stuck using a centuries' old commodity to produce energy - petroleum. We could unshackle ourselves from this with our amazing resources and manpower and smarts in our country to develop fusion, hydrogen, and other sources of energy. But, we're just fucking lazy like the average American, and like the average American, it's biting us hard on the ass now.

So, with petroleum as our only source of energy, we're stuck relying on one thing to keep our country alive. Which wouldn't be too bad of a thing, except we're so fucking huge and thirsty, like some massive tumor, that we completely consume every petroleum resource we have here. So now look at the boat we're in. Our life - our very nation's existence - requires something that we don't have enough of. Alright.. don't worry, it gets worse.

A group of countries that have oil coming out of their ears and nothing better to do with it made an orginazation, OPEC, with the sole intention of bringing the industrialzed world to their knees with outlandish prices and complete control (see 1980s oil crunch). Tthe Middle East, where most of these countries are, has been hating us for decades , ironically over something that was Europe's fault and not ours (see: Postwar partition of the Ottoman Empire), but we get the blame since we back Israel.

Now, these people that hate us have the complete ability to crush us, and would love to do it, but can't risk it because once we're faced with too high prices, we'd either invade them, or stop paying them and do something else - something they can't afford. So, they give us the oil.. but make sure to charge as high as they can before we flip out. This puts America in a hard spot for a long time.. until an opportunity arises. Say, maybe, an OPEC country with a shit load of oil that's been doing naughty things so we can take their oil straight from the warehouse without being fucked by the retailer?

Nevermind that we really honestly don't give a fuck what Ali-whoever and Saddam what's-his-name have been doing to their own people and their neighboors. Since when has American cared about Middle-Easterners anyway? Honestly? But, when they have a bunch of oil, and we've got an excuse, it would be stupid not to put the plan into action. So now with a reason to invade - knowing full well that we'll be the occupational force in the aftermath - and with a good reason to feed the UN and the American people to get permission for it, the plan goes into action.

Except one glitch - the rest of the world isn't as stupid as the American people. Sure, we bought the excuse. But a lot of people didn't, namely giant things like.. oh.. the UN, some powerful nations in Europe, Asia, South America, so on and so forth. Nope. They didn't buy it.

But us.. the American sheep, yep. We bought it. 9/11, while being a nasty hit on the American morale, worked pretty favorably to gather up the Nationalistic bandwagon in support of killing Middle-Easterners... er.. I mean terrorists. Oh, you think that's funny? I do - because even our president tried to pull that off on the people - telling them Saddam had links to al Qaeda (the people behind 9/11), when those links were never found to be true. He even tried relating this more to 9/11, which he knew we all hated, by saying Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and that they - oh gosh no - in some act of complete stupidity launch a few at the US (forgetting that makes no sense for a State to do, seeing as how the US would retaliate like none other).

These excuses turned out to be bullshit, but we believed it. We rode the post-9/11 wave of Nationalism right into the sands of Iraq, killed a bunch of people quickly, and took control over the government. But now, look where we are... being sabotaged in our efforts to get energy to help our starving nation.. uh.. and make democracy... by these god damn relentless rebels who wont stop messing with the Empire... er.. America.

It's like Vietnam... except it's a lot worse. In Vietnam, we were defending our prestige and our honor behind our capitalistic ways and our strength by not letting a capitalist country fall to our sworn enemy communist believers. Our survival wasn't directly on the line, just our face. But this Iraq business... yeah. Our ass is on the line. Sure, the war isn't on the homefront, but if we don't secure some lucrative oil deals here soon, then we're going to have to pull a hydrogen rabbit out of our asses in the next 20 years to save ourselves from "going Roman".

In the end.. do I agree with it? No. We shouldn't have gotten to this spot to begin with. But we did. And now we're in it - and we have no choice but to press forward. It's hard to tell young American soldiers that they're gonna go out there and lose their lives, and kill a bunch of fathers and really pissed off young boys that just want us to get the hell out over something as abstract as oil. Which is why we aren't telling them that (look at the morale in Vietnam for Christs's sake, capitalism wasn't really a warm fuzzy thing to die for). But we slap freedom and counterterrorism on there, and yeah.. we can send people to die for that.

Oh well. I hope we get our oil and live on a little longer. But in the end, after the depleted uranium dust settles, we're still going to need hydrogen or fusion or whatever. But in the historic terms of things, if we can shape shit up there quick, secure things, and get out of there with a fascist pro-American government in place - then we did good.

vegeta1215
06-06-2005, 01:35 AM
We get our oil from many places around the world, not just the Middle East. Even if something drastic happened in Iraq, we'd be alright with energy for a while.

Hydrogen fuel cells and other newer sources of energy are being developed, but it costs a lot of money to do so, and even if cars etc could be put on the market with that kind of technology, it would be very expensive for the consumer, and it wouldn't all of a sudden pick up in popularity. It doesn't help that oil companies have deep pockets and have a lot of power - they're going to stay profitable for as long as they can.

Beldaran
06-06-2005, 01:58 AM
Also, the biggest the dissenters to the war (France, Russia, Germany) were later found to be profiting immensely off of lucrative oil contracts drawn up by Hussein in exchange for their voice in the UN.

Like so much of politics, there are no good guys in this situation, except the commen men and women on the ground doing the bidding of the fat cats at the top. It's a complex and disgusting puppetry act perpetrated by those in power to not only jockey for position amongst each other, but to keep common people heavily deluded as to the real meaning behind world events.

Brasel
06-06-2005, 03:13 AM
Its people like the guy who lives near you, Toolie, that gets our boys killed over here. Our unit is much more disciplined than whatever poagish unit that your friend is from. I've had a friend die here, a good buddy of mine, but I'll be honest with you, not nearly as many soldiers are dying over here as there are Americans back home being killed by drunk drivers and other accidents like that. I mourn my friend's death, and I refuse to think he was fighting for something like oil. Maybe the politicians are twisted and corupted, but the guys over here all have our reasons to fight. Don't think that by just a couple people you've talked to that moral over here is bad and everyone thinks that the war isn't worth fighting for. I'm fighting for something. My future, my family, and the freedom that my family enjoys. Within the next couple of years, I'll be fighting for my family in Iran, or even Korea. But right now, we're fighting here to bring a better life for the Iraqi people who were living oppressed and now are living in fear of insurgant take over.

When you see the children laugh and smile and wave to you when you leave the camp you're staying at. And people come up to you and thank you for what you're doing for them. I feel a lot better about my decision to join the best fighting force the world has ever seen.

Toolie
06-06-2005, 09:56 AM
I'm fighting for something. My future, my family, and the freedom that my family enjoys. Within the next couple of years, I'll be fighting for my family in Iran, or even Korea. But right now, we're fighting here to bring a better life for the Iraqi people who were living oppressed and now are living in fear of insurgant take over.

How is any Americna's future, family, or freedom on the line in Iraq? The only reason we are there is energy. We've drafted up a nice list of secondary reasons to be there to support the cause and make the people and the soldiers all nationalistically happy and content like you obviously are, but we're there for energy and to setup a stable pro-American fascism in the Middle East that we can use as a staging ground to - get more oil.

MacWeirdo42
06-06-2005, 10:53 AM
War is rarely, if ever, justified. Maybe World War II, but then, it was basically a defensive war. More often than not, though, world leaders simply manipulate the emotions of their people to serve their own needs. The Iraq war is a good example of this, I think. Why did we go to war? At first, the answer was to protect ourselves. This answer turned out to be incorrect. Besides the fact that no WMDs were found, I don't see how Iraq ever posed a threat to us. Sure, Saddam was very anti-American, but who isn't these days? More importantly, what would he have had to gain from it? Nobody goes off to fight a war (especially one which he is very likely to lose) without a purpose. Saddam knew that if he tried anything, he'd be taken down. There was no threat. And to anyone who claims that his war would have been some sort of religious crusade, Saddam was a secular dictator. He didn't trust the religious radicals, he was afraid they might overthrow him. So there goes one reason.

Next, we were fighting to bring freedom to Iraq. What utter bunk. Last time I checked, Saddam was not the only tyrannical dictator out there. There are many countries which we haven't liberated, so one has to ask the question why. Why did we seemingly randomly choose Iraq out of the great many countries which are still in oppression? And why aren't we helping anyone else now? Ridiculous. It spits in the face of freedom and liberty, the idea that some people deserve it more than others.

Furthermore, we must always remember that government is derived from a mandate from the masses, and that you can't simply impose any form of government, no matter how good your intentions. The people have to want it in order for it to work. I'm not saying that people in Iraq didn't want freedom, but I am saying that they didn't want it enough to fight for it. The very fact that we had to earn it for them proves that they're not ready for it. In order to maintain freedom, you must be willing to fight and die for it. If they were truly prepared for it, they would have started their own revolution. Maybe we could have then helped them out, and that would have been okay, but they needed to start it themselves, when they were ready.

As such, I fail to see what reason we had for going to war, unless it was for the personal gain of the powers-that-be (Bush and the Republican party). Heck, forget the oil, let's face it, an easily won war is always popular with the people, and it helps fuel nationalism, which in turn leads to the people supporting the government even more (while questioning it less). Of course, on top of that there is the theory that Bush started this war to make up for the first Iraq war lead by his dad. Then again, maybe he really did get confused and think that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 (ALWAYS a possibility).

Toolie
06-06-2005, 12:12 PM
If only the media would "objectively" report facts - all of them - then maybe more people would share this educated view.

Glitch
06-06-2005, 02:00 PM
I've shared my views on this fucking war many times now, and I can sum all my thoughts into one sentence.


I support our troops, but in no way to I support this fucking war or the President that got us into it.

Brasel
06-06-2005, 02:46 PM
How is any Americna's future, family, or freedom on the line in Iraq? The only reason we are there is energy. We've drafted up a nice list of secondary reasons to be there to support the cause and make the people and the soldiers all nationalistically happy and content like you obviously are, but we're there for energy and to setup a stable pro-American fascism in the Middle East that we can use as a staging ground to - get more oil.
The insurgants and what not want to kill Americans. They hate us, they hate our way of life. Right now, the troops are in harms way and the insurgants don't have to put themselves in as great of danger by crossing the water to kill us. Being here makes us a bigger, easier target in their eyes, than to come into our homeland to kill more of us. By being here, we don't have to worry as much about terrorists going home and targeting the innocents, our families. I'd much rather keep the fighting over here than to bring it to our great country.

You, sir, and your family are part of who I am fighting for. I don't want to see another 9/11, and I sure as hell don't want to see my family be part of another 9/11. I don't care what this war is for, or why its being fought, but to me, I'm keeping the danger out of my home. So if you want to hate our country, and bite the hand that feeds you, then get the hell out.

Toolie
06-06-2005, 04:06 PM
So if you want to hate our country, and bite the hand that feeds you, then get the hell out.

First of all, no where did I say that I "hate our country". There's a lot of shit this country really messes up on, and a lot of really stupid stuff this government does, but the government and the nation aren't the same thing (there's a difference between nation, a social construct and identity, and state, a political body with borders and a government). I hate the way this government conducts foreign and domestic policy to no end, and it's my damn right to voice it. Without my voice, the country could slip into conservative tyranny without opposition at any time. I'm the balancing force. So if you don't like it, you can get the hell out of my country.



Back to the point, the insurgents want to kill Americans because - hello, clue train! - we invaded their fucking country! That's right buddy, how would you feel if a bunch of Spanish troops were in our country standing on every corner precision bombing houses of people that hated them and trying to install a Monarchy in the name of "Moral Justice" or some bullshit? You probably wouldn't like it much either.

And another big lesson in world politics that you need to learn - people do, and are allowed to hate us. Yeah, that shit's been happening for a long time with every other country in the world, and it's no different with us. If they hate us, so be it. The state that they are in, Iraq, did not like us like most countries (but how could anyone hate us? We're the greatest country on Earth!), but however, Iraq was no threat to us at all. Maybe if America didn't want to be so hated by everyone, we could stop being all high-and-mighty, sit down, listen to what these guys are talking about, and maybe do some things that would make the world a bit happier - like keeping our music and our immorality and our shitty fast food out of their countries and let them be their own nation with their own culture.

Of course some extremists think that they should destroy all of the United States.. well, another lesson - extremism happens. Just like every Bible-thumping midwesterner who wants to "pave the middle east over" is just as bad of extremism. Their thoughts do not represent the majority of the people. Needless to say, if terrorism is going to happen, it's going to happen. We can't stop it by proactively seeking it out and ending it. It's a fucking guerilla tactic, it wont work that way (see: War on Drugs).

We've already raped Afghanistan. I'm not sure what was worse, a theocratic totalitarianism there under Islam, or the narco-dictator state that it's becoming since the Taliban, who outlawed opium, is gone. Congrats America - thanks for giving "freedom" to the Afghan people (and a shit load of drug lords to pay tributes to). Vietnam wants to wish you thanks as well (which, by the way, is a very productive communist country now. Yes, communism in a non-evil context.)

It's a fucking nightmare scenario we've created, and it's great how you're taking part in it, really. I'm not even sure I can support our troops because it's a fucking volunteer army. But I can't say that I don't, or I'll be branded as some deep end liberal nut. Pfft, whatever man. You're choice to go put your ass on the line for some propogandized ideals. Maybe you're an American extremist yourself, or maybe you're just easily impressionable by recruiters.

Brasel
06-07-2005, 09:58 AM
Alright, I agree, it IS your right to bitch about it. Who am I to say otherwise. But the hardcore, extreme insurgants we're fighting over here aren't from Iraq. These guys are mainly Syrians and Libyans, the few Iraqis that do attack us aren't usually the ones we see as a big threat.

If you want to not support the army because its a volunteer force, so be it. Regardless that I'm a soldier, I still have more respect for someone willing to volunteer during this day and age to better themselves, and whether you see it or not, better and protect their country than I do the lazy assholes who live off of welfare checks and don't attempt at getting a job I see bitch about whats going on with our country's government. (not saying you fall into that category) I'm not perfect, I stereotype and get angry at the people who complain because a large portion of them that I've met are the type of people I'm talking about.

MacWeirdo42
06-07-2005, 10:54 AM
Last time I checked, though, the insurgents weren't the reason we invaded Iraq. The insurgents are a product of our invasion of Iraq. Saddam was the reason we invaded Iraq (at least the stated reason, anyway), and he was never a threat to us. Yeah sure, I'll agree that it's a real mess now and we can't simply pull out, but nonetheless, I cannot fathom how on Earth starting it in the first place was ever justified. So much death and destruction, all because Saddam would not get rid of the WMDs that he didn't have (and yes, that was the original reason we went to war, whatever anyone might say)? That is absolutely friggin' ridiculous.

Rainman
06-07-2005, 11:45 AM
I read a column recently called "The '-ism' at the gate" by Charley Reese. There he said that the government is doing what many nations have done in the past, which is to claim (truthfully or otherwise) that an enemy was at the gate and just begging to get in. This plays on a group of people's fear of the outsider and hightens nationalism. Well more recently, the author contended "isms" have been the target. In the past, ideals like socialism, isolationism, pacifism, anarchism, fascism, and communism have the served the governement in consolidating power. Now we have a new one called Terrorism. This one has the perk of being easily applied to many different groups. Heck, if you just mildly disagree with the government they can say that you are supporting the terrorists. So I agree with MacWeirdo in that oil is probably a big cause, but it's part of bigger powergrab by the government. In the end that will be much more harmful.

BTW, here is the essay: http://www.lewrockwell.com/reese/reese195.html

Brasel
06-07-2005, 02:36 PM
Last time I checked, though, the insurgents weren't the reason we invaded Iraq. The insurgents are a product of our invasion of Iraq. Saddam was the reason we invaded Iraq (at least the stated reason, anyway), and he was never a threat to us. Yeah sure, I'll agree that it's a real mess now and we can't simply pull out, but nonetheless, I cannot fathom how on Earth starting it in the first place was ever justified. So much death and destruction, all because Saddam would not get rid of the WMDs that he didn't have (and yes, that was the original reason we went to war, whatever anyone might say)? That is absolutely friggin' ridiculous.
As I had said before, I'm not concerned about why we were over here in the first place. And I was arguing the point that we are over here fighting for something. I just can't stand the fact that people back home believe that we're over here fighting and dying for nothing. I don't want Lopez's death to be in vain. I don't want people to pity him because he died for nothing. I won't stand for it. Not even I like the whole idea of why we were over here in the first place, but until people have been both spectators and contributers, they won't fully understand...maybe what I'm saying doesn't make much sense to some of you, but thats alright, at least I know what I'm doing is right in my eyes and my family's. At least I'm fighting for something thats definately worth fighting for.

MacWeirdo42
06-07-2005, 03:00 PM
I understand what you're getting at, Anthony, but, well, the start of the war is what it's all about, though, at least in my eyes. If we hadn't started, there'd be no need for the current fighting, would there? It's a very sticky situation, honestly. The way I see it, we're currently fighting to prevent the mess that we made from toppling down on us. I'm certainly not saying it's pointless; I very much understand how we have to continue the war. But then again, it's like, we wouldn't be in this mess if the people in charge had truly thought it all through. Bah. I can see both sides. We're not fighting for nothing, yet we didn't have to fight in the first place. I suppose none of it really matters, though, because it's not like we can just take a time machine and fix everything... I'm just stuck in the past, is all. I still remember back when Bush declared his ultimatum, and realizing that it was already too late to do anything about it (on a side note, I was really pissed off by all the protests that took place after the war started, not because I disagreed with them but because at that point, we were WAY the hell past the point of no return and it would have been more productive to have protested before the war - though I have a strange feeling that all the protesting in the world wouldn't have changed Bush's mind). I guess I just want to make sure people learn from this and hopefully prevent it from happening again in the future.

To sum up my viewpoint, basically, I was opposed to the war before it even started, but now I've come to grudgingly accept it, but only in the sense that I realize we have to follow through even though I really wish we weren't in this position.

Belgarath
06-07-2005, 10:54 PM
We have the resources to not depend on oil *right NOW, but the methods and materials we could use are *illegal* because of a bunch of capitalists who got scared that hemp was going to disrupt there business back in Benjamin Franklin’s day.

Look up biomass fuel.

Dechipher
06-08-2005, 03:16 AM
Biomass fuel produces 1/4 the energy that coal does, and also produces methane gas. Biomass provides 2% of the fuel the world uses.

I know that much....