The New War!

[lord of the pit]

The deal with the war in Irac is just stupid. wast millions of dollers on things that wee dont need, like sending more and more people over to Irac. My cuz is over there and he sed it was relly bad. Why all the bother we should just pull our people out and set up a bettor miltary. Our men is probly tired of being there so bring them home. This so called war is rasing gas prices to 2.09 and still going up. I think its retarted.

whats your thoughts?

[Kairyu]

How is this "new?"
Is the rise in gas prices actually related to the war, or is that just assumed?

[Gerudo]

LotP, "Irac" isn't a country. "Iraq" is...

Really though, I think I your supposed message you wanted to get across in that post. Bring our troops home and don't raise gas prices? Gas prices have jumped because they need more money to supply the war with, and really, you can't just go raising taxes like that. You can raise gas prices all you want, because nomatter what, there's ALWAYS at least someone who will get that $5.00 a gallon fillup.

[Coder GT]

I don't know why gas prices have gone up, get a hybrid car ;)

Yes, I always against the war from the start. I think the war should end.

[mikeron]

The deal with the war in Irac is just stupid. wast millions of dollers on things that wee dont need, like sending more and more people over to Irac. My cuz is over there and he sed it was relly bad. Why all the bother we should just pull our people out and set up a bettor miltary. Our men is probly tired of being there so bring them home. This so called war is rasing gas prices to 2.09 and still going up. I think its retarted.

whats your thoughts?At first I thought this was a satire, but the truth is just sad. As for your "reasoning", if your primary concern is the 25 cents per gallon increase, which is arguably caused by other factors, I have to call your deductive skills into question. However,despite all this, I'd have to say that this is easily the best Iraq War thread AGN has ever seen. Kudos to you, my friend.

[goKi]

Starting the war in the first place is stupid. Ending it now would probably be almost as stupid. Sending more troops over now, though. That's probably the worst thing to do. Slowly withdraw them as they aren't needed. Wasn't Iraq 'liberated' in 2003?

[J.J. Maxx]

Cmon guys, we've had so many threads about this. The price of oil has nothing to do with Iraq. It has to do with OPEC and saudi-arabian oil production and how the global market responds to the price of a barrel of oil.

Go look it up. The fact that you can't even spell the country your talking about labels you as an idiot and makes your supposed theories or problems completely useless dribble.

Thank you.

[AtmaWeapon]

You know I agree very much with goKi. Whether the war should have been started is questionable, but whether we should totally withdraw is not. If we leave Iraq is it is, there will be a power vacuum and lots of bloodshed as any joker with a gun decides to claim ownership of Iraq. Eventually, the person who is best at killing other people while making other people afraid to kill him will climb to the top, and we'll be right back where we started.

One of the more interesting points a friend has brought to my mind is the possible ulterior motives for a war in Iraq. The terrorist groups want very much to have an open war with America. We'd like it too, since we outnumber them and attrition is on our side. However, until we invaded Iraq, the only places we could really fight were on American soil, where American innocents are at risk. While I'm not comfortable with any war, I must admit I do find the prospects of Iraq being in danger much more pleasing than the prospects of America being in danger.

Eventually the people of Iraq will grow a spine and start to fight the men killing their families. When that begins, our need to stay in the country will diminish. However, as it stands right now, the people would be willing to bow in fear to the first warlord that claims he runs the place, and that is no way to leave the country.

My point about gas prices still stands. We easily pay half per gallon what the rest of the world pays. Until we are paying more than everyone else, there is no real reason to complain about how high the prices are.

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

Point One: Coder, Hybrid cars get TERRIBLE mileage, if you go and use any of that fancy luxury equipment such as air conditioning and the heater. So provided you drive the car in a place with a moderate year-round climate, yeah, hybrid cars are great.


Point Two: JJ and Atma, I agree with you about gas prices. We get gas comparably cheap to the rest of the world, and the war in Iraq really hasn't affected things much other than the OPEC countries possibly raising the prices out of spite for the US. Maybe. Also, the fact that the world is rapidly running out of oil (http://www.exitmundi.nl/oilcrash.htm) doesn't make things any cheaper.

[Manny]

Cmon guys, we've had so many threads about this. The price of oil has nothing to do with Iraq. It has to do with OPEC and saudi-arabian oil production and how the global market responds to the price of a barrel of oil.

Go look it up. The fact that you can't even spell the country your talking about labels you as an idiot and makes your supposed theories or problems completely useless dribble.

Thank you.

Correct. I actually heard that Bush had somehow neglected somekind of agreement with OPEC which has caused the prices to rise. Sorry for the lack of details but thats what i heard around here. Either way, if this is right or wrong, the prices are still in control by OPEC.

My opinion. I've been against the war in the first place. It's like we get attacked, we're all over Afghanistan (sp?), after Bin Laden, then all of a sudden Saddam comes into the picture because he's been neglecting the UN arms treaty (which he had been neglecting since the end of desert storm so we finally go after him now). Which I find rather bizarre. So we go in to remove weapons of mass destruction and when we don't find any, it's "Operation Iraqi Freedom". Remember in 2003 the whole "Mission Accomplished" thing. Doesn't seem like we're any closer to getting out then we were when we started. But i'll stop here. It's been done. We've had discussion after discussion. and we've been all throughout this topic and frankly i'm tired of it.
I agree with JJ also. If you want to discuss a topic like this, please get your facts straight and learn to spell and at least look like you're trying to make an intelligent post. It's sad how ignorant a lot of people are. We're at war with a country and there are people out there who think it's spelled "Irac".


Point One: Coder, Hybrid cars get TERRIBLE mileage, if you go and use any of that fancy luxury equipment such as air conditioning and the heater. So provided you drive the car in a place with a moderate year-round climate, yeah, hybrid cars are great.

True, but if this country actually encouraged the development of better hybrids or alternatives then we might be getting somewhere with them. Right now they're bad, but because the people who run our country are Republicans, alternatives will never see the light, primarily because it would require an alternate power source and they would lose money. I lived in Brasil and they have Alcohol powered cars. It's a lot cheaper by the Liter (1.5 r$ / L over 3.5 - 4 r$ L for gas), and though not the greatest, it's a start. Not argueing against you mate, just wanted to expand on this topic.

Anyway, take it easy ya'al
peace,
-manny

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

True, but if this country actually encouraged the development of better hybrids or alternatives then we might be getting somewhere with them. Right now they're bad, but because the people who run our country are Republicans, alternatives will never see the light, primarily because it would require an alternate power source and they would lose money. I lived in Brasil and they have Alcohol powered cars. It's a lot cheaper by the Liter (1.5 r$ / L over 3.5 - 4 r$ L for gas), and though not the greatest, it's a start. Not argueing against you mate, just wanted to expand on this topic.


Blaming republicans is hardly fair, Manny. There's a lot more at work than the right wing in this situation, and alternatives aren't being held back simply because of who's in the white house. Consider the economic backlash of the entire US switching to hybrid cars, or some other alternative. The mideast economy, powered so powerfully by oil (which the US uses so very much of), would take a severe hit. Terrorists would hate the US even more as a country without an appetite for oil.

Besides, there's no true alternative to oil and fossil fuels, period. Industry, on a base level, is built on the easy mechanical energy provided by internal combustion and whatnot. You can't smelt steel with a smelter powered exclusively by electricity. You can't very easily fly a plane being weighed down by massive batteries. You can't reposition a sattelite with electricity. You can't drive a tank or a fighter jet with electricity. Oil has catapaulted society faster than we could have possibly imagined, but we're moving so fast, there's no way to slow down. The only way to stop is to crash, and crash hard.

On the plus side, the ensuing famine caused by the inability to transport food across the country will kill off the less intelligent members of the population, who cannot grow or gather their own food.

[Manny]

Blaming republicans is hardly fair, Manny. There's a lot more at work than the right wing in this situation, and alternatives aren't being held back simply because of who's in the white house. Consider the economic backlash of the entire US switching to hybrid cars, or some other alternative. The mideast economy, powered so powerfully by oil (which the US uses so very much of), would take a severe hit. Terrorists would hate the US even more as a country without an appetite for oil.

Besides, there's no true alternative to oil and fossil fuels, period. Industry, on a base level, is built on the easy mechanical energy provided by internal combustion and whatnot. You can't smelt steel with a smelter powered exclusively by electricity. You can't very easily fly a plane being weighed down by massive batteries. You can't reposition a sattelite with electricity. You can't drive a tank or a fighter jet with electricity. Oil has catapaulted society faster than we could have possibly imagined, but we're moving so fast, there's no way to slow down. The only way to stop is to crash, and crash hard.

On the plus side, the ensuing famine caused by the inability to transport food across the country will kill off the less intelligent members of the population, who cannot grow or gather their own food.

okay maybe I was being a little hasty. However I think your explination was a little farfetched as well (ensuing famine etc.)
I'm not saying that we need to completely 100% change over to hybrids. I'm saying that we have to start somewhere, no matter how small the start, just as long as we make the very first steps. I gave the examples of Brasil using Alcohol as an alternative. Although not the best, and far from perfect, it is a lot cleaner and cheaper to buy. Though not as efficient (mileage wise) as gas, it about evens out, perhaps ending up a lil more expensive (don't know everything on the topic so my statements may be slightly incorrect), but at least it's an effort to use alternatives on a larger scale.
It's true I was being a bit hasty saying that all Republicans are to blame, and failed to mention the car companies making their effort. However, you have to admit, The government has a strong influence. Last semester in my enviornmental sciences course i studied a bit about global warming and the use of fossil fuels. A lot of natural gases (coal etc.) companies wouldn't think to change anything and denied the existence of global warming and that the addition of CO2 to the enviornment was beneficial (while it may be to the plants, it most certainly won't be to us when we're dieing). Also, it is understandable their statements; hell why would they sink themselves saying what they're doing is wrong? But it is ignorant of them to deny the issues of enviornmental disaster in the far future (long after they're dead and gone). They had some republicans on the documentary I saw supporting these companies or had some sort of involvement in them. It is unfair to generalize about Republicans on this issue, but i feel for the most part it's true.
I think that if the government put some research money into developing a hybrid (wheather it involves using less gas or an alternative), and companies put it on the market on a small scale, it could turn into something bigger, or it couldn't, it's a risk. Regardless, I feel that it would be torwards a better cause then blowing up people will billions of dollars (and don't give me this crap about liberating Iraq, more peaceful methods could have been done to deal with this, and it wasn't our business in the first place). I agree that Big engines should still use fossil fuels, simply because engines that big require said fuel. However, it is known that these fuels are running out and in the end we'll need an alternative, so why not start now? I don't see it happening anytime soon with the government the way it is now, but I have hope for the future.
anyway that's all i have to say
peace,
-manny

[mikeron]

Point Two: JJ and Atma, I agree with you about gas prices. We get gas comparably cheap to the rest of the world, and the war in Iraq really hasn't affected things much other than the OPEC countries possibly raising the prices out of spite for the US. Maybe. Also, the fact that the world is rapidly running out of oil (http://www.exitmundi.nl/oilcrash.htm) doesn't make things any cheaper.Wow, I haven't seen a Peak Oil (http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/) reference in a while, kudos. As for cheap gas, the price at the pump is on the low side because the government gives preferential treatment to and subsidizes the oil companies with tax dollars, so gas prices are distributed over the whole tax-paying population, instead of just drivers. Even so, we do have it rather good. I also heard that the Senate approved a move to start drilling for oil in ANWR, in an area where it had been forbidden.

Besides, there's no true alternative to oil and fossil fuels, period. Industry, on a base level, is built on the easy mechanical energy provided by internal combustion and whatnot. You can't smelt steel with a smelter powered exclusively by electricity. You can't very easily fly a plane being weighed down by massive batteries. You can't reposition a sattelite with electricity. You can't drive a tank or a fighter jet with electricity. Oil has catapaulted society faster than we could have possibly imagined, but we're moving so fast, there's no way to slow down. The only way to stop is to crash, and crash hard.Thermal Depolymerization (http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/footnmouth/zwaste2.html) is a process whereby we could technically "make" oil for use where it is essential (plastics, pharmaceuticals). As for those other examples, energy obtained from alternate sources (the most sexy being controlled thermonuclear fusion) could be used to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen, or to produce other gases for those purposes, also providing the means for a "hydrogen economy". There is a scheme for ionic propulsion of satellites whereby a solar panel is used to ionize xenon gas, for 10x the thrust of conventional rockets. Hopefully Xenon could be obtained just as cheaply under the new energy scheme.

The funniest thing about all of this is the politicians. They obviously haven't got a clue. They don't seem to understand that it takes more energy to get hydrogen than you actually get back from it, so you make just as much polution with current technology. These guys just slap the word hydrogen on whatever the problem is, and it seems to go away for a month or so.


On the plus side, the ensuing famine caused by the inability to transport food across the country will kill off the less intelligent members of the population, who cannot grow or gather their own food.The dream lives on. See you at Thunderdome.

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

I also heard that the Senate approved a move to start drilling for oil in ANWR, in an area where it had been forbidden.


Yes, I've also read about this, but it's really just a big waste of a beautiful place. It'll take nearly ten years for any oil to start actually coming out of ANWR, and even at that point, the US will be importing an estimated 70% of it's oil, so the ANWR oil will barely make a dent in that. The only options are:

1. Conserve and use less (delay the inevitable)
2. Find some amazing alternate source for electrical power (cold fusion, anyone? Not likely)
3. Sit on our rears talking about hydrogen until the global economy crashes and total chaos ensues (pretty much guaranteed; hope you've built your bunker!)

[AtmaWeapon]

Yes, I've also read about this, but it's really just a big waste of a beautiful place. It'll take nearly ten years for any oil to start actually coming out of ANWR, and even at that point, the US will be importing an estimated 70% of it's oil, so the ANWR oil will barely make a dent in that. The only options are:

1. Conserve and use less (delay the inevitable)
2. Find some amazing alternate source for electrical power (cold fusion, anyone? Not likely)
3. Sit on our rears talking about hydrogen until the global economy crashes and total chaos ensues (pretty much guaranteed; hope you've built your bunker!)

Somehow I get the feeling there are supposed to be a few numbers in between 2 and 3 there; polarization is bad enough to be a fallacy as far as I'm concerned.

It'd be like me saying we have 2 choices about Iraq: blow them up or let them blow us up. Surely there are other options.

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

Well, clearly there are more subtle options, Atma, but the three I listed are quite honestly what it basically boils down to. We ignore the problem, we fix the problem, or we get screwed by it. Honestly, how many other ways are there to deal with an issue of any sort? We either fix it, or not, and when I put it that way, we can pretty much make it just numbers two and three.

Besides, comparing the situation to Iraq isn't quite fair, in my opinion. Iraq is a highly political situation with absolutely no inevitable outcome. The oil crash is a bit more cataclysmic, in all honesty.