2.11 Beta 1(and 2) Progress

[Dark Nation]

Here's the changes so far for ZC 2.11 Beta 1:

1. Fixed Gleeok's hp (was too high).
2. Fixed the bug where slashing (or using the hammer or wand) on one side of the screen could affect things on the other side of the screen.
3. Made the game data dynamic (for security purposes).
4. ZC no longer writes it's temp files to the root of drive C. Now, it stores them in the same directory that ZC is housed.
5. ZGP.DAT is now called QST.DAT.
6. The tile format has been reworked. At the moment, the change should be transparent to the user. However, this change will allow for new tile formats in the future (256-color tiles, 16-bit tiles, true-color tiles, etc.).
7. The bug with ZC not remembering the correct quest dir has been fixed (it would change whenever you switched directories to load a quest file in ZC).
8. The bug where ZC would only look in the quest directory to find a quest has been fixed. Now, it looks at the location where the save file says that the quest is located.
9. The quest loading progress box no longer shows the percent done for the tile reader. This makes quest loading somewhat faster.
10. Sprites now have a Z variable. This allows for expansion for new enemies (and other things) that will be able to jump and fly. Although a few enemies already do this (tektites and peahats, for instance), the calculation for them is faked. The new method makes jumping/flying easier to do from a programmer's prospective.
11. Eyeball combo calculations are only done when an eyeball combo is encountered. This should speed up screen rendering by a few fps.
12. The year has been fixed in the title screens.
13. The key name display in ZC key dialogs has been fixed.
14. The wrong text background in the ZC key grabber has been fixed.
15. Fixed the issues with the mouse jumping to the wrong location when when you move off the ZQuest window in scaled windowed mode.
16. Fixed the bug where SPC files would stutter when paused instead of going silent.
17. Fixed the bug where enemies don't drop clocks anymore.
18. Fixed the bug (oversight?) where you couldn't adjust Link's walk style (2-frame or 3-frame) in ZQuest.
19. Fixed the bug where some older quests would freeze on the starting DMap.
20. Fixed the bug where some of the enemies would be wrong in old quests.
21. Fixed the bug where double-clicking a combo in the master combo list would only edit the combo if it were on the first combo page.
22. Fixed the bug where deleting a screen was not counted as a change in ZQuest, so ZQuest would not ask to save if that was the only thing done before exiting.
23. Fixed the bug where non-MIDI songs would stutter if the game were paused (with the 'F3', 'F4', 'p', or 'a' keys).
24. Fixed the bug where selecting 'Stop tunes" from the Etc menu wouldn't uncheck the 'Lost Woods' option.
25. Music playing is stopped now when MIDIs is selected from the Quest menu.
26. ZQuest can now play the alternate music types that ZC handles (mp3, ogg, spc, it, xm, s3m, and mod).
27. Renamed 'Play MIDI' in the Etc menu to 'Play music' to correspond with the above change.
28. Fixed the year in the end game credits.
29. Fixed the tile import/export.
30. Now, changing the title screen for ZC causes it to reset so that the correct title shows immediately. Before you had to either wait for the title to cycle through once or manually reset the game.
31. Alternative music now continues to play while the game is paused (with the p key, not the Start button).
32. Fixed the bug where the Triforce init settings weren't being saved by ZQuest.
33. Fixed the bug where the Triforce init settings weren't being used in ZC.
34. Fixed the bug where a DMap Intro on the starting DMap could freeze the game.
35. Misalignment arrows now show up on disabled screens.
36. Pasting a map screen now causes the color to change immediately (before, you had to switch screens and then return to see the correct colors).
37. The 'Heart Container' room type is now called the 'Red Potion or Heart Container' room type.
38. There is a new List Combos Used (shortcut key is `) under the Tools menu. This will show you a list of all of the combos used on the current screen.
39. Deleting a screen now counts as a change, so ZQuest will ask about saving when you try to quit after doing a screen delete.
40. Panel 4 now shortens the room string when displaying it so it doesn't run into the combo scroller.
41. The Catch All caption and value now match up with the other captions and values in panel 4.
42. The room types are now alphabetized.
43. The screen palette dialog now has a dropdown list of the screen palettes with the palette names instead of a numeric entry box.
44. The < and > keys (you have to hold the shift key down) will now flip through the 256 possible screen palettes.
45. Changing the message more x and y variables now counts as a change in ZQuest.
46. When deleting a message string in ZQuest, the scring is shortened so it will fit in the confirmation dialog.
47. When deleting a message string in ZQuest, the End Game string value is updated if necessary.
48. Fixed the bug where there would sometimes be random characters appearing at the end of a message string in panel 4 and in the confirm string delete dialog.
49. The DMap number in the Edit DMap dialog titlebar is now correct (before, it was 1 number too low).
50. Going to the MIDI editor now stops music playback in ZQuest.
51. If a screen doesn't have a message string associated with it, it is now shown as (None) instead of (none) on panel 4, to make it match up with the other items there.

[ShadowTiger]

Here's the changes so far for ZC 2.11 Beta 1:

10. Sprites now have a Z variable. This allows for expansion for new enemies (and other things) that will be able to jump and fly. Although a few enemies already do this (tektites and peahats, for instance), the calculation for them is faked. The new method makes jumping/flying easier to do from a programmer's prospective.

Sprites? Does this include items? ... Whatever. My main concerns here with the enemies are that I've noticed that that when you stun a creature that's jumped into the air, it stays hovering in the air, and its shadow doesn't move either. Does this mean that the tektite (Or other) will fall to the level of its shadow when stunned?



Thank you for the bug fixes. :) We look forward to testing a new version produced.

[bigjoe]

Sweet, so beta testing is still in business.

I'll have to get off my ass and organize these forums. (Well, technichally, I'll still be ON my ass.. but , uh, you know...)

Oh, and btw, please make enemies drop clocks again x_x A good clock animation is woe in a quest where you cant find them.

[Dark Nation]

Actually, with the Z variable, it can. As it is now, jumping is approximated by modifying the y variable based on a timer. The shadow's position is calculated based on the Y position and the timer. When you stun the creature, it's movement is simply paused at whatever X and Y position it's at. In the new style, the shadow is kept in memory and the creature's position is modified during movement based on the Z variable. When stunned, it would be fairly trivial to make the creature drop to the ground_y location (where the shadow is). Granted, that could be done now (in a backwards manner), but the Z variable makes this easier.

And, yes, it includes items. So, it could be possible to have hearts floating to the ground like in Z3.

[Dark Nation]

17. Fixed the bug where enemies don't drop clocks anymore.

[Jigglysaint]

Actually, with the Z variable, it can. As it is now, jumping is approximated by modifying the y variable based on a timer. The shadow's position is calculated based on the Y position and the timer. When you stun the creature, it's movement is simply paused at whatever X and Y position it's at. In the new style, the shadow is kept in memory and the creature's position is modified during movement based on the Z variable. When stunned, it would be fairly trivial to make the creature drop to the ground_y location (where the shadow is). Granted, that could be done now (in a backwards manner), but the Z variable makes this easier.

And, yes, it includes items. So, it could be possible to have hearts floating to the ground like in Z3.

And it would be neat to have things like keys fall from the sky like in the Gameboy Zelda games.

Falling bombs couldn't hurt also(no pun intended).

[bigjoe]

Yay, now I don't have to worry anymore. :D You just have no idea how much little things like that get to me...Thanks!

[Dark Nation]

18. Fixed the bug (oversight?) where you couldn't adjust Link's walk style (2-frame or 3-frame) in ZQuest.http://www.armageddongames.net/darknation/linkwalkstyle.gif
(nam)

[*b*]

woo hoo! Z variable! I don't really get it, but it sounds important

I'm not sure if these are related, but since you're messing with the temp files ZQuest makes, could you make it so that ZQuest can store a bunch of temporary files? (for more than just one undo, and so the previous action isn't lost when you change screens)

[Dark Nation]

That's an entirely different matter. Temp files are just the files that ZC and ZQuest create temporarily when loading a quest. But, I'll look into it.

[Cloral]

Does #8 mean that the quest directory is no longer needed? That would certainly eliminate a lot of n00b confusion.

[Orion]

Would this z-variable allow for picking up and throwing bombs and rocks, as well as the rock's feather? Or am I on the wrong page?

[Dark Nation]

Does #8 mean that the quest directory is no longer needed? That would certainly eliminate a lot of n00b confusion.It's no longer needed, but it's still useful. If you use quests that are in the quest directory, then move the directory somewhere, simply pointing ZC at the new quest directory will fix those quests. Any quest that is not in the quest directory will have to be manually relinked if it is moved.



Would this z-variable allow for picking up and throwing bombs and rocks, as well as the rock's feather? Or am I on the wrong page?No, you got it right..

[Dark Nation]

19. Fixed the bug where some older quests would freeze on the starting DMap.
20. Fixed the bug where some of the enemies would be wrong in old quests.

[Dart Zaidyer]

Doesn't the BS Animation rule control Link's walking style? What's the point of adding an option to change it? Do you plan on allowing more options that way or something?

20. Fixed the bug where some of the enemies would be wrong in old quests.
Hey, great!

As far as adding Z height to sprites, perhaps one of the first things you could try it out on is an "Items fall when dropped" quest rule. So when you kill something and it drops an item, the item will launch into the air a little bit, then fall to the ground and bounce a couple times, like later Zelda games. A new shadow sprite would probably have to be made though.

[Dark Nation]

Doesn't the BS Animation rule control Link's walking style?It used to. But it was moved to Init Data a somewhere in 1.93, I think, but no way to change it was added. So, older quests have this value converted automatically. But there wasn't a way to change it (or set it) in new quests.

And the idea about falling items sounds good. I'll look into it.

[ShadowTiger]

Hm. I wonder how it would be done. Initially, you (I, actually. :p As I have done this, and can give you guys the tiles for it if you want.) could draw a heart spawning in, flashing, and still flashing a bit as it enlarges, is flipped toward the northeast, rises toward that direction, slowly enlarges, slowly directs itself toward the south and eventually southwest, then south again, growing as it does it, ... eventually landing, and then starts pulsating. It continues to do that until its ending animation. Of course, it must be timed absolutely perfectly, lest it appear to spawn from the air once more while nearing the end of its lifetime on the ground. But that's a very minor thing. A "Item Spawn" graphic would ameliorate that.

So concerning the falling item, would there or would there not be a phase during which it is falling, that you cannot pick it up? All the speeds, frames of animation, and no-pick-up-times would be configurable as well?

A small change, but definitely full of the detail that ZC'ers love seeing from you. ;) :thumbsup:

[Dark Nation]

21. Fixed the bug where double-clicking a combo in the master combo list would only edit the combo if it were on the first combo page.
22. Fixed the bug where deleting a screen was not counted as a change in ZQuest, so ZQuest would not ask to save if that was the only thing done before exiting.
23. Fixed the bug where non-MIDI songs would stutter if the game were paused (with the 'F3', 'F4', 'p', or 'a' keys).
24. Fixed the bug where selecting 'Stop tunes" from the Etc menu wouldn't uncheck the 'Lost Woods' option.
25. Music playing is stopped now when MIDIs is selected from the Quest menu.
26. ZQuest can now play the alternate music types that ZC handles (mp3, ogg, spc, it, xm, s3m, and mod).
27. Renamed 'Play MIDI' in the Etc menu to 'Play music' to correspond with the above change.

[Jigglysaint]

Well it could be possible if there is a screen flag that would make the item fall from the sky, with a no interact rule set for a few seconds while it's falling and bouncing.

Another idea would be that if an item appears on any Z location that's not equal to Link's current Z position, that item is not obtainable. This means that how it would work is that when an item appears, it could appear on the 6th layer, and then decend each layer, then it could be unobtainable for a split second. A shadow could be affixed under it via a screen flag(actually could work for any item).

Anyway, another concept could be an item stuck on top of a column or somthing that you need to bomb to make it fall. It just checks to see if the Z location has a certain combo, and it will pass to the next layer.

[ShadowTiger]

.. Oh boy. You know what this means? We'll have to start getting COMBOS to have Z-Variables! O_O Height variables! Such as, Link cannot move from any (walkable) Z-Variable that is more than one number greater, and can "fall" onto any one that is less than one in height. Oh boy...

That'll make layering hell though. I mean, think about it. They'd have to be two different systems, practically. O_o

[Ganonator]

That'll make layering hell though. I mean, think about it. They'd have to be two different systems, practically. O_o I got around this in my game by allowing the player to change the layer he is drawn on. If he's noted as 'layer 2', he's drawn between 2 and 3. If he's on 'layer 4', he'd drawn between 4 and 5.

The Z variable in ZC, I imagine, will allow for some LttP style layer effects, possibly affecting how the player interacts with layers above 2.

Regarding your quote, BH4, layering isn't a problem. If I want an item on layer 3, I just place it on the screen that corresponds to that layer. This isn't necessarily the way it's done in ZC, but there's as chance it might be in the future.

[Cloral]

From what DN's said so far, I don't think the Z-variable is used for layering at all. Currently it sounds like what it does is act as a Y-displacement in order to make things like Vires and Keese look like they are moving upwards. In the future this could allow Link to jump by modifying the z value - as long as it was above 0, Link would not be touching the ground and therefore would be immune to ground-based stuff like pits. But I doubt this would allow Link to jump to a new layer.

[Jigglysaint]

Good point, but things like falling keys would also work like that as well.

Also, it just occured to me that cliffs, at least in the gameboy version, are just tiles that force a jump over the tile(and others) from just one directiion. Nothing special reguarding layers would needed to make such an effect.

[Dart Zaidyer]

Yes. The way cliffs work in 2d Zelda games is very simple... When Link jumps off, he keeps going until he has cleared all solid combos. This includes rocks, trees, boulders and what-have-you.
There's a really great example of this in LttP where you can jump off a ledge on Death Mountain and you will go past the stationary boulders on the ground before landing.

[Blonde799]

10. Sprites now have a Z variable.
So, this basically means you now have an easier time measuring the height for sprites? If so, I think RPG Maker 2 helped me understand programming better than I thought.:)

[Cloral]

Actually I just had another thought. Might you make a rule in future versions to make the enemy jumping more accurate? What I mean is, with Vires and Pols Voice, might you make it so when they jump, they cannot be hit because it's Z value doesn't match Link's?
Some interesting things could be done with stuff like this - there could be bats that only swoop down to attack and otherwise are too high to hit unless Link jumps up to hit them. Maybe Patra would be hittable while flying around so long as Link jumps up to their level. You could also have the skeletons from LttP that jump when you try to slash them.

[*b*]

Some interesting things could be done with stuff like this - there could be bats that only swoop down to attack and otherwise are too high to hit unless Link jumps up to hit them

that brings up an interesting suggestion - Z value for tiles, so jumping off cliffs could be possible?

[Dart Zaidyer]

That sounds like convoluting a perfectly simple idea, if you ask me.

No 2d Zelda game *ever* kept track of height that way. The way it's done now, sprites having a Z variable to make it look like they're flying, is the way Nintendo did it.

When Link jumped off a cliff, it was an illusion. It looked like he was jumping, but what he was really doing was going through a fake animation like Tektites do as he moved across the solid combos.

By the way, has anyone noticed the Roc's Feather/Cape only worked when jumping over non-solid combos? If you ran into a wall or a block or a pot, it would block you.

[PrinceMSC]

Here's the changes so far for ZC 2.11 Beta 1:

6. The tile format has been reworked. At the moment, the change should be transparent to the user. However, this change will allow for new tile formats in the future (256-color tiles, 16-bit tiles, true-color tiles, etc.).

So how close are we to this future? Cause I would so love to have more color per Cset.

:king: PrinceMSC :king:

[Rydia]

6. The tile format has been reworked. At the moment, the change should be transparent to the user. However, this change will allow for new tile formats in the future (256-color tiles, 16-bit tiles, true-color tiles, etc.).

Is this meaning that we will be obtaining the ability to rip SNES palettes, and GBA palettes easily in the future?

One question, are you going to be adding the new warp system that was being talked about and stuff?

[Cloral]

Actually the SNES (and probably the GBA too) uses 16 color palletes - 16 of them at a time to get 256 colors. This is exactly how ZC works currently. Although not having to worry about palletes when you rip tiles would be nice.

[Orion]

Indeed... the only thing really keeping us from true SNES color is the fact that we can't use all 16 CSets on a palette at the same time. I'm curious to hear how this new format is going to work, and how it will effect older quests.

[Blonde799]

Indeed... the only thing really keeping us from true SNES color is the fact that we can't use all 16 CSets on a palette at the same time. I'm curious to hear how this new format is going to work, and how it will effect older quests.
Yeah, we can only use 2 csets at the same time, and that's kind of limiting as well. Although I'm not complaining about the color limitations really, as that means less work in making tiles.:p

[ShadowTiger]

Well, .. there's also layering. O_o You could layer things from other Csets onto the same general area, if you also make good use of the Cset 2 ability for combos. :shrug: ... Pretty useless considering the alternatives though. :sweat: But if it had to be done now, it could!

[Cloral]

I think what orion's talking about is how there's only 4 csets that can change from pallete to pallete, since the others are reserved for the subscreen, enemies, items, and the like. If palletes were expanded to include all 16 csets, then we could do color just like is done on the SNES. But yeah, if we're going to get 16 bit color, then there really isn't a need for this.

[Rydia]

10. Sprites now have a Z variable. This allows for expansion for new enemies (and other things) that will be able to jump and fly. Although a few enemies already do this (tektites and peahats, for instance), the calculation for them is faked. The new method makes jumping/flying easier to do from a programmer's prospective.

Is this going to allow us to be able to have playable, and enemy sprites bigger than 16x16? Like 16x32, or something?

[Raichu86]

The Z index is exciting. I'm looking forward to seeing what cool new stuff comes from it.

Preparation for higher color depths is also great... Just don't let it end up like Alpha 173. :p

[Jigglysaint]

You know, I feel the need to make another thread about a new release of ZC with an enemy editor and all sorts of new things. Anybody remember beta 179? Those were the days...

[ShadowTiger]

Lol. Or tell them DN's real identity is an 11 year old kid in the 6th grade. That'd be funny too. ;)

[idontknow]

I love the idea of a z-variable...some ideas:
1) Aquamentus 2: A dragon like that of the aquamentus, except instead of moving back & forth, it flies in a circle and shoots flames while doing so, so link can't hit it. Then it'll land back on the right side of the screen again (so maybe a left & right one would be required so to designate what side it will be on when landing)

2) Jumping/Roc's Feather: Item can make link jump, allows him to jump over one space...perhaps a new "jumpability" square for combo editor would need to be in order so as to designate what link can jump over.

3) Digging and '-1' layer: Negative z-values can designate things underneath the ground, perhaps maybe a new "-1" layer can be made, which appears invisible in the editor unless you uncheck the visibility boxes of all other layers...the layer also appears invisible in the game, but you can see parts of it when you "Dig" on "Diggable" spaces, or when you move blocks, erasing layer 0, revealing layer '-1'.

4) Z-Values for layers: Certain z-values for layers can mean different things, perhaps to reorder layers--so if layer 2 is assigned by the creator a z-value higher than layer 3, it will actually appear above layer 3--or maybe a layer w/ a z-value of 1 makes it so link can jump onto the layer, but if higher than 1, link will always be underneath it. If, 0, link will always be above it.

5) Z-values for items: Maybe it can make items drop from enemies, or pop-out of a new kind of bush, or fall from the 'sky'! :)

6) Z-values for enemies: Can make enemies jump to various heights: -1=dig underground (like leevers), 0=ground enemies, 1=hovering enemies 2=flying enemies (as they are currently) 3=flying that link must use certain enemies to reach them or to 'jump' and attack them--likewise, they must fly lower, to a value of 2 or less, to hit Link). 4=Link can never hit them (unless it 'swoops' down)

[*b*]

5) Z-values for items: Maybe it can make items drop from enemies, or pop-out of a new kind of bush, or fall from the 'sky'! :)
like the keys in Link's awakening? brilliant!

personally, I can't wait for extended CSet. Golden Sun tileset here I come!

I also liked BH4's Item Spawn idea, and it made me think of another idea; overworld/menu items. here's what I mean

say you have an animated tile of a sword resting in a pedestal, like the Master Sword, for an item. Link would come up, and pick it up like normal, but it wouldn't show the sword as it looks while in the pedestal, but looking like it was laying down, or something like that. in the menu, as well, it would show that "laying down" sword, instead of the one in the pedestal. get it? you could do so much with this; 50 rupees partially buried, a mushroom growing off the side of a tree, a bow and arrow set hanging on a rack...

[Dark Nation]

I updated the first post will a complete list of all the changes. However, here are the most recent ones.

28. Fixed the year in the end game credits.
29. Fixed the tile import/export.
30. Now, changing the title screen for ZC causes it to reset so that the correct title shows immediately. Before you had to either wait for the title to cycle through once or manually reset the game.
31. Alternative music now continues to play while the game is paused (with the p key, not the Start button).
32. Fixed the bug where the Triforce init settings weren't being saved by ZQuest.
33. Fixed the bug where the Triforce init settings weren't being used in ZC.
34. Fixed the bug where a DMap Intro on the starting DMap could freeze the game.
35. Misalignment arrows now show up on disabled screens.
36. Pasting a map screen now causes the color to change immediately (before, you had to switch screens and then return to see the correct colors).
37. The 'Heart Container' room type is now called the 'Red Potion or Heart Container' room type.
38. There is a new List Combos Used (shortcut key is `) under the Tools menu. This will show you a list of all of the combos used on the current screen.
39. Deleting a screen now counts as a change, so ZQuest will ask about saving when you try to quit after doing a screen delete.
40. Panel 4 now shortens the room string when displaying it so it doesn't run into the combo scroller.
41. The Catch All caption and value now match up with the other captions and values in panel 4.
42. The room types are now alphabetized.
43. The screen palette dialog now has a dropdown list of the screen palettes with the palette names instead of a numeric entry box.
44. The < and > keys (you have to hold the shift key down) will now flip through the 256 possible screen palettes.
45. Changing the message more x and y variables now counts as a change in ZQuest.
46. When deleting a message string in ZQuest, the scring is shortened so it will fit in the confirmation dialog.
47. When deleting a message string in ZQuest, the End Game string value is updated if necessary.
48. Fixed the bug where there would sometimes be random characters appearing at the end of a message string in panel 4 and in the confirm string delete dialog.
49. The DMap number in the Edit DMap dialog titlebar is now correct (before, it was 1 number too low).
50. Going to the MIDI editor now stops music playback in ZQuest.
51. If a screen doesn't have a message string associated with it, it is now shown as (None) instead of (none) on panel 4, to make it match up with the other items there.

[Orion]

43. The screen palette dialog now has a dropdown list of the screen palettes with the palette names instead of a numeric entry box.

Thank you!!

[JayeM]

Sounds great! How far are you from a bug-free release?

[Dark Nation]

I'm looking at May. Of 2007. :rolleyes:

Actually, I'm not sure. Hopefully, I will start to get some more free time soon so I can get 2.11 out.

[Blonde799]

I'm looking at May. Of 2007. :rolleyes:

Actually, I'm not sure.
DN...you don't have to lie.:laughing: The truth hurts, but we can handle it.

[Dark Nation]

I'm *SERIOUSLY* considering going open source. Definitely have to talk to PM and WL first. It would cause development speed to skyrocket, but there would be no more security on quests.

Thoughts?

[Blonde799]

I know what that means.:( Quest security isn't exactly Brinks quality right now. Open source would be a double edged sword, but if you're seriously considering it still, I'd suggest you do the old process of pro/con reduction.

[Dark Nation]

I'd suggest you do the old process of pro/con reduction.Like I said...
Thoughts? :tongue:

[vegeta1215]

I'm *SERIOUSLY* considering going open source. Definitely have to talk to PM and WL first. It would cause development speed to skyrocket, but there would be no more security on quests.

Thoughts?

Would it cause development to skyrocket? Certainly open source allows the possibilty, but there's no guarantee. First you have to spark people's interest, second, those interested have to become familiar with the code and what it's doing, and that takes some time. ZSNES's development skyrocketed after it went open source, but only because they got one really really good developer. (Nach, in case you follow ZSNES development) But it's not the same for every open source project.

Making ZC open source could help in many ways, but I wouldn't want it to branch out into other versions. Plus, if ZC became open source, it could be included in Linux distros and other products, possibly drawing more attention to ZC.

Oh yeah, Open Zelda went open source, anyone know what happen to that?

[Dart Zaidyer]

Open Zelda got Daniel Barras's attention, that's what. He used them in his little game of "eliminating the competition while coming up with an excuse for why my stupid project is never getting done" and successfully fooled their webhost and everyone at GU into thinking Nintendo wanted the project dead.

After that they eventually made a few engine updates and just decided to rewrite the whole thing from scratch, and as far as I know it is still being worked on. Interest pretty much died when they started turning away "copyrighted materials".

But as to ZC being Open Source, well... ZC is a lot more famous, and some decent programmers should come along in no time. The problem is working with distribution splinters and quest security.

I think it'll come down to this:

Quest security is already breakable, you know. Only the competent and dedicated ever try to do it, and that's not going to change even if somebody writes a cracking utility. (Which they probably could have done even now.)
A resourceful community will probably actually find a way to circumvent distro splinters. Either there will be one definitive version that everybody uses because it's so good, or someone will establish a "feature pool" and everyone will just want to share. There are other ways, too... Drop-in features that don't require modifying a quest file directly, etc etc


However, without the right license, Open Sourcing will decentralize ZC from AGN. This may ensure that nobody can ever kill it, but it can also lead to a control nightmare if you're not careful.

[Dark Nation]

Another possibility is to get a team of competent, trustworthy, and available programmers together to work on ZC. The current programmers (myself included) seem to be lacking the last attribute. Other programmers on this board seem to be lacking in one or more of the three afore mentioned qualifications.

[ShadowTiger]

Open Source? In Which ONLY these set people, X, Y, and Z, can design the engine and new items and all that, and all the members can do is make quests? They won't be able to build their own modules, such as new combos and such for their quests, which will then be incompatible with the player, and ... ... Okay, I'm confuddled. How will this work exactly? :odd:

[JayeM]

Does this mean that you're retiring from ZC, DN? I hope not...

I really don't think open source is a great idea. Maybe you and fatcatfan could take on another couple of helpers. Any prospects?

[Dark Nation]

BH4: You're confusing my two ideas. Open Source means everyone gets the source code. Upside is that people we've never heard of would have a chance to contribute. Downside is that we'd lose control of the source and there would be no quest security anymore (anyone could open, edit, and rip anyone's quests). The other idea is to just hire more help, but good help is hard to find. Even harder is finding good help that has the time to help (as is the case with the 3 current programmers).

JM: No, I'm not retiring. I'm just limited on how much time I have to work on ZC and am looking for ways to speed up development.

[JayeM]

Oh good, you scared me!

My first thought for new programmers was Mottzilla.

[Dark Nation]

If it weren't for the episode with Kenage, I'd have already asked him on the team.

[Blonde799]

Well, if all else fails DN, you can move to FPS creator, heard that was the Zelda Classic of FPSs.:p

I thought about Mottzilla too, but then I remembered that previous incident. Maybe a sparring of certain bygones are in order? It seems that open source isn't exactly favored. I'm sure you've thought of this already DN, but maybe developer concentration could be the order of the day? Since no one has time to work around the clock it seems, maybe a specific direction would work. From what I've heard, 3 folks navigating a large cluttered room seems to be a challenge.

[Dark Nation]

Sparring? Or sparing?

[Blonde799]

Sparing, sparring, you get rid of them in the end.:p

EDIT:Nevermind, got the details. I should've read her forums when I had the chance like a bajillion years ago.:p

[Masamune]

That Ninja Gaiden 4 project he was working on looked awesome. I'm sure he'd be a big help to you, DN.

[Ganonator]

Yea, Mott's a competant programmer, but he's lacking in the PR department. As a representative of AGN, I wouldn't let him be one of the 'special developers', but let him deal with it when it's open source.

I have no problems with open source, and if we contact the right people, you could actually get it in with Linux Distros. Funny thing is, it could be the next big thing you get when you get Linux, your own open-source copy of ZC. Also, this board's number of programmers would go up exponentially.

Since I'm not officially here anymore, I just want to say that the only 2 people that can let this happen for sure are WL and PM.

[Masamune]

Just out of curiousity, what happened with mott and kenage?

[JayeM]

As I understand it (from Mottzilla) that was more "guilt by association" than anything he did. Kenage was his friend and she was doing something with a beta source acquired by callitaday. Ask PM what he thinks of him.

[bigjoe]

Yeah, Im sure if you mentioned that to him he'd be like "dude, wtf!"

Mottzilla probably wouldnt WANT to work on ZC, though...

[JayeM]

Mottzilla probably wouldnt WANT to work on ZC, though... Yes, he would, and he has loads of free time right now.

[bigjoe]

Yes, he would, and he has loads of free time right now.
Oh, well thats not the impression I got from him awhile back.

[Blonde799]

That Ninja Gaiden 4 project he was working on looked awesome. I'm sure he'd be a big help to you, DN.
Whatever happened to that anyway? All I know is his lastest demo was an object test. Has it gotten further?

[Masamune]

It was discontinued because of some shit with his team, but now apparently it's started up again according to him. Just very slow.

[Dark Nation]

I know that he was part of the group that was trying to compile the source code they stole as he asked me some very specific questions about how ZC was compiled during that time. Plus, the copies of posts from Kenage's forums confirms his association.

[JayeM]

OK, I've been too trusting again. But then if you go open source, he'll have the source code anyway, so trustworthiness is kind of a moot point.

Probably the best idea is to have a heart-to-heart with PM...let us know the results, ok? Maybe he knows someone he would recommend. Wish I was a programmer...I'm trustworthy and mucho available, just totally incompetant. Exactly what languages, etc. does ZC use?

[Dark Nation]

ZC is programmed in C++
The graphics, input, and sound routines come from the Allegro library.
There are also 4 other audio libraries that ZC uses: AlMP3, AlOGG, AlSPC, and DUMB.

[bigjoe]

The past is the past, dudes. Id trust Mottzilla NOW. He's matured greatly and is a competent programmer.

[Dark Nation]

Any other opinions on Mottzilla?

[Sephiroth]

Any other opinions on Mottzilla?
I really don't know the guy so I don't have anything to say. I just want to add this: Good luck on finding some help DN. :)

[Blonde799]

Well what I tried to say was, maybe you should let it go in regards to Mottzilla. I think he knows better than to get into things now. Although trust on the internet...

[JayeM]

And maybe if he was on the team his loyalties would shift in our direction? PM's input would interest me, and not just about Mottz.

[Blonde799]

Just tell him to get his Ep.1 loving butt back here and HELP US!!!:p

[vegeta1215]

PM's input would interest me, and not just about Mottz.

Ditto. Afterall, Mottzilla did work a little with PM to bring ZC version 1.84 to Windows.

I'm a CS major and am almost finished grad school, so I have some programming experience, but I've never programmed a game or anything on the scale of ZC.

[Orion]

I don't mind Mott as a person, but given his recent little spat (http://www.armageddongames.net/showthread.php?t=85976) with Ganonator, I don't think he is the type of person to work on ZC. It seems to me he is not the kind of team player that you would want on board.

[Dark Nation]

Would you feel the same about Mott's comments if Ganonator hadn't been a developer for ZC during the discussion? I think Mott's point was that only people who had actually seen the code are qualified to comment on it. However, he didn't know that Ganonator was a programmer for ZC since Ganonator hadn't distributed any builds of ZC and nobody had made any announcement (I don't believe) that Ganonator was now a part of the team. *shrug*

[Ganonator]

it doesn't matter anymore. I'm not developing on it now.

If you guys want Mott, go for it. I have my own projects to work on.

Good luck, ZC followers. Wish I was able to work :'(

[Dark Nation]

Well, you've still got a spot on the team if you want it back. Just say the word. :)

[Orion]

I dunno, it just seems to me that he is the type of person that gets hot if things aren't done the way he wants them to be, he's got the "i'm always right" kinda attitude (which is fine, I know I can be like that too, but I don't think it bodes well for being a part of something like that). That impression isn't just from that thread I mentioned either. Either way, it's just my two cents, I'm sure others know him better than I do. No doubt he has the ability.

[Masamune]

I say go with mott. IMO, he's reliable and dedicated. And the way I see it, as long as he's working under someone (so it won't be HIS project that he wrote the code for) he won't be as hostile about disagreements.

[ShadowTiger]

I say go with mott. IMO, he's reliable and dedicated. And the way I see it, as long as he's working under someone (so it won't be HIS project that he wrote the code for) he won't be as hostile about disagreements.
Well, I'd agree with that right there. The occasions in which I have spoken with him, he had been very friendly. Create / Maintain a friendly environment for all, and there shouldn't be a reason to have a harsh one where strife reigns.

I'd welcome him, if he's interested. :)

[idontknow]

Since there seems to be a lotta activity in this thread and people keep looking at it, i'll just make a reference here to my thread. Can some please look at "About Z Variable" in this same forum and reply there to answer my questions? Thanks in advance.

[JayeM]

Well, that's several votes (mine included) but this isn't and shouldn't be a democracy. The choice belongs to those who have to work with him: DN and FCF.

Sounds like vegeta may be another possibility, maybe confined to small jobs at first due to his lack of experience.

[Jigglysaint]

Open source eh? From what I see, making ZC open source could give this project new life. With different people working on it, different ideas could be implemented, and faster too. The problem is that we know for sure that at one point or another, several people have tried to steal ZC away from AGN. If the project goes open source, what's to say that some place like ZCN couldn't just magically revive and start offering their own ZC type thing, obviously change a few things and it looks like somthing totally different?

Zelda Classic IS AGN. Most of the community is based off of the program, whether it's old users or new members, ZC is the main focus. Then again, perhaps it's time for ZC to be more decentralized, and let other projects take over as AGN's flagship game. In the interests of AGN, it all boils down to what WL and PM want. As for me, speeding up production would be good, however with an open source, bugs might creep in. There is also the issue of compatablily. Right now ZC is one program, one quest format, one user base. If multiple versions and entities exist, who's to say that somebody couldn't just use ZC to spite AGN and make their quests imcompatable with other programs? Also, the idea of a stranger working on somebody's beloved project seems kind of scary.

The problem with an alternative idea, a pool of additions, is that all those things would need to be pluggable into both the editor and the engine. If ZC was able to handle a simple patch that would allow, say, 8 way scrolling, then that would work. If I recall, ZC is not set up like this to just accept new engine components at a whim. If it was, the program itself could stay updated by a small team, where they would just ensure that hardware capabilities are updated and bugs squashed. The rest could fall on others who could write scripts the game can handle. The scripts would be added to the ZC program itself, instead of being quest specific. That way, everybody would still get a fair chance to use it, instead of some loser geek making a totally cool script and not sharing it.

But like I said, I don't think ZC can handle a scripting language, in its current condition.

[Dark Nation]

Any other thoughts on Vegeta?

[Orion]

Just a random thought... would there be any legal rammifications regarding going open source? I know Nintendo is cool with ZC now, but is there anything that might change it's mind if something happened after it went the open source route?

[Dark Nation]

If it goes Open Source, it basically becomes untouchable, since anyone can modify/distribute it. One place gets shut down, another opens up. *shrug*

[Blonde799]

I could think of a few things that I could do with it if I had some experience with C++, most of which have some sort of negative intent.:p Not that I would really do these things, but what I'm saying is, the open source idea while having the potental to be very helpful, could be potentially explosive as well. So DN, get any replies from ML and PM?

[vegeta1215]

Another thought I had: open-sourcing ZC MAY speed up the development, but there are obstacles too. One of them is handling the influx of people we would probably get. Would the staff already in place be able to handle it? And are they dedicated enough to handle it? I say this because many of the bug report/forum sections of projects I've read on sourceforge have an enormous amount of activity that requires a lot of community effort.

About the possibilty of me contributing to ZC: even if I did contribute to ZC somehow, I don't know how much time I would be able to work on it. And from what I gather, you guys need people who can dedicate sometime to the project :shrug:

[Dark Nation]

Well, Mott turned down the offer. Seems he doesn't have as much free time as once believed. Any other recommendations?

[Ganonator]

yeah, get Vegeta to help out ;) He's awesome!

[JayeM]

Vegeta doesn't have time either. I'm out of ideas...go open source I guess. What does PM have to say?

I'd like us to have a stable, bug-free-as-possible version before we go open source...is that possible?

[PrinceMSC]

What about Sludge? He's a great programmer.
And when do you plan to release 2.11 beta 1?

:king: PrinceMSC :king:

[JayeM]

Well, your thread in ZC Discussion didn't turn up much, though Solaris Omega sounds like a possibility. Could you let us know what's going on, if you've heard from PM, etc.? Open source is beginning to look like the only option.

Meanwhile back at the ranch...it looks like you have a lot of bug-fixes in 2.11 Beta 1 already. Any chance you could let us try it on for size?

[Dark Nation]

I saw the post by Solaris Omega. For some reason, his name is raising warning flags in my mind, though i can't figure out why. It could just be a case of mistaken identity, but I want to be sure before I follow up on that train of thought. As for a new beta version, I'm in the process of finishing up a change to the code (that currently has the program in a non-operative state). Once I get it hammered out, I should be able to give out a new beta.

Edit: Did some searching and found/remembered that Solaris Omega also goes/went by the name Link Hylia, which definitely set off alarms, though I can't remember why. The only thing that springs to mind is a post made from his IP address under the name 'Dark Natlon', though he attributed that to his brother. For some reason, I'm thinking there is something else I'm forgetting. Anyone have any information they wish to contribute?

[Blonde799]

Since I can't poke around the forums, I'll just say that I do remember Solaris stirring up trouble somewhere and getting banned or something. I didn't know Link Hylia was under the same IP or whatever, but I do remember that user.

BTW DN, old posts are still archived right?

[*b*]

I think he got in trouble for spamming, or flaming in General Discussion some time ago. I know he got in some sort of trouble at one point, but what it was for, I'm not quite sure

[ShadowTiger]

I saw the post by Solaris Omega. For some reason, his name is raising warning flags in my mind, though i can't figure out why. It could just be a case of mistaken identity, but I want to be sure before I follow up on that train of thought. As for a new beta version, I'm in the process of finishing up a change to the code (that currently has the program in a non-operative state). Once I get it hammered out, I should be able to give out a new beta.

Edit: Did some searching and found/remembered that Solaris Omega also goes/went by the name Link Hylia, which definitely set off alarms, though I can't remember why. The only thing that springs to mind is a post made from his IP address under the name 'Dark Natlon', though he attributed that to his brother. For some reason, I'm thinking there is something else I'm forgetting. Anyone have any information they wish to contribute?
Well, I know that he's definitely programming "Therios Online (http://www.theriosonline.net/)," and seems to be rather proficient at it. He's kept to himself mostly, but seems to be quite the charismatic fellow. ... Of course, so did Glenn. :p But you really can't judge a person until you see them for yourself. I'd give him a thumbsup. :shrug:

And of course, once more, thank you for all the work you're putting into ZC, DN. :) ... You pwn. :P

[bigjoe]

As for a new beta version, I'm in the process of finishing up a change to the code (that currently has the program in a non-operative state). Once I get it hammered out, I should be able to give out a new beta.

Cant wait 'til you have it ready. I've got some plans related to bug tracking that I'll lay down once it's done.

[Raichu86]

As for open source, I have to say it would probably be best to wait until the inevitable (and unfortunate) day when ZC isn't going to have a home site anymore. Until that time, let it continue to be AGN's flagship game, and seek new programmers, because there are, as others mentioned, some obstacles to deal with in open source as well.

As for new programmers, I don't know of any. I wish I'd learned C++ by now. :p But alas, of the languages I do know, C++ isn't one of them, and it'd probably be a while before I could grasp the depth involved in making a game.

[Jigglysaint]

At one point we thought that he was impersonating Phantom Menace.

[Deviance]

By any chance will there be a linux release also?

[jman2050]

*Reads entire thread*

God... talk about absolute perfect timing XD I was a bit befuddled at the speed and apparant openness with which I was attended to when I PMed PM. JayeM suggested it to me, so I did it, not really expecting much more than the ability to make utilities in a support role (like fcf did with his mapmaker). When I was offered the job almost immediately, I couldn't do anythign BUT accept.

Now I see why... I have no clue where FCF is and DN says he doesn't have time to work on it, so I guess more programmers were needed, and I happened to come at the right time. I guess I'm just saying this to confirm the fact that my participation here is a complete and total fluke XD

As for ZC going open source... I have my reasons, but I'm usually against the open-sourceness of specialized projects like games. I just don't think it really is neccesary. Then again, I suppose this gives me more incentive to work hard, since if I do a good enough job, going open source or not won't even be a factor ^^

And on another note, I made my first change today. The source gets a LOT more understandable as you work with it, and I'm starting to get an overall picture of the system in place. What's the change? Nothing too major depending on who you ask, but you all won't know until I progress further. Once again, I thank everyone for their support.

[bigjoe]

Well, just cant wait until the next beta comes out! Once it does, I will again attempt to compile a list of the remaining bugs.(Hopefully with the help of others!)

Good luck, jman!

[Blonde799]

Newest Zelda Classic Developer. All ZC bugs are now retroactively my fault XD.
ROFL

I think you'll do a great job. :)

[*b*]

jman goes to #PureZC on occasion, where he is but a lowly user. I am an op. jman is also a developer now... sweet. now I can ban and kick him till he adds the features I want!

kidding. I wouldn't do something like that. I'll just probably keep you from speaking

[jman2050]

2.11 Beta 2 Progress

1. Direct Timed warps. Still uses the side warp and is controlled via the screen data dialog. Difference is, there's now a screen flag called 'Direct Timed warp' that, when checked, saves Link's position onto the new screen when warped. Custom bosses should be easier now, although there are a few more things that need to be worked on to make things more versatile.
2. New quest rule: 'Combo cycling on layers' Incorporates code that allows combos on layers to cycle in the game engine. Properties don't take effect (as usual), but I assume it'd be useful for certain animations as well as changes in collision.
3. Fixed the bug where the dungeon progress maps would not save correctly.
4. Changed the way Link Tile Modifiers work. Now ALL of Link's animations should be changed when you pick up an LTM item other than a shield. As for the shield, it's LTM value will only affect Link's downward and left/right walking animation. Keep this in mind.
5. New quest rule: 'Full Priority Damage Combos'. When checked, damage combos will ALWAYS take effect over any other combo if you walk between two different combo types. If this poses a potential problem, an effort will be made to give more flexibility to the user for determining priorities of combo types.

To-do:

New password encryption
Working with the continue bug as respects to the side warp
The MIDI bug (may be difficult to do)
New subscreen types
Some new combo types
Other stuff :P

New beta should be coming soon.

[ShadowTiger]

Dude, you are MAD Cool! :p *Applauds* Your first update. So cool, man. :) Bet you're really happy with the progress. ^_^ It's not easy, and the community is backing your every need.


Now, ... question. (And Comment.)

The Direct Tile Warp, still uses the side warp? Couldn't get it to use the Side Warp? So you had to decide between tile warp, which has BOTH stair warp (Destination) and Direct (Same Spot) ... And Side Warp, which generally ONLY has Destination? .. So that's why we have Side warp as the direct timed. Nice.


Now for the comment. The Link Tile Mods have a great acronym, but so does LinkTheMaster. :p We should keep this in mind. ^_^ :laughing:

[LinktheMaster]

I noticed that. Lately in chat that's been used and I thought someone was talking to me. :tongue:

Anyway, these are some really good updates. I loved the timed direct warps and the layered combo cycling stuff. And, it's great to hear my point about the damage combos has been looked into. ;) Great stuff, jman. :thumbsup:

[Nick]

You've answered a lot of problems I've had with some certain things with just those few additions. :scared:

Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

[Blonde799]

Wow, that was fast.:) Good work. I hope to see more progress from you in the future jman.

[Freedom]

wow... smokin' Jman2050

One bug that is causing me great problems right now is the shops not showing up bug.
It seems to be even worse when the item being sold in Misc. 1 or 2.
When this is used to block access and then decides not to show up, it stops the player dead at that point.... quest then unbeatable.

[Dart Zaidyer]

Changed the way Link Tile Modifiers work. Now ALL of Link's animations should be changed when you pick up an LTM item other than a shield. As for the shield, it's LTM value will only affect Link's downward and left/right walking animation. Keep this in mind.
This sounds retroactive. Shields need to go all the way, and I'll tell you why: Some of us have already drawn Link tiles where he's holding a different shield when facing upward. We were looking forward to doing it for many more animations, like sword swinging.

Also of note is this entry from the Categorized Bug List:

Because the sound code has changed starting with 1.93 alpha 4, people have been reporting many odd sound-related issues, mostly distortions or failures of some kind. I think DN said it had to do with a different version of Allegro being used.
That being the case, try switching back to the sound code used in 1.92 b183 and that should solve everyone's problems. Nobody EVER complained about that one.

[jman2050]

This sounds retroactive. Shields need to go all the way, and I'll tell you why: Some of us have already drawn Link tiles where he's holding a different shield when facing upward. We were looking forward to doing it for many more animations, like sword swinging.

Also of note is this entry from the Categorized Bug List:
I think DN said it had to do with a different version of Allegro being used.
That being the case, try switching back to the sound code used in 1.92 b183 and that should solve everyone's problems. Nobody EVER complained about that one.

Fact is, until the references to the link tiles are changed all together (come to think of it, it might not be THAT hard, but it would most definitely break older quests without some work), it has to be this way if people want to take advantage of the Link Tile Modifiers. Notice how on the tile sheet, there is only 1 tile for Link walking up in 2-frame mode, and only 3 frames in BS mode. Furthermore, swimming, attacking, heck almost any action except walking the tiles don't take into account any modifiers on the shield's part. That leaves two options aside from this one:

1. Remove the shield check, and force the user to redraw all the link tiles at a different location so getting the shield doesn't break the graphics.
2. Change the link tile sheet altogether and make it more flexible, adding in new graphics for the shield modifying.

I know a lot of you wouldn't mind the first option, but for every advanced user of ZC there are 5 ZC n00bs. We have to cater to the n00bs too ya know. As for the second option, perhaps in the future, but DN is already planning/working on a more flexible approach to Link's tiles anyway, so I won't deal with it until I ee what DN has in store. So I went for the lowest common denominator, and with all due respect, considering the constraints, I think the tradeoff is worth it.

EDIT - As for the sound problems... We're working on it. Somehow >_>

[Dark Nation]

Well, making Link's tiles selectable shouldn't be too hard; it's just a matter of doing it. That's what the Link tile sprites dialog is supposed to accomplish eventually.

[fatcatfan]

I can conceive of making it such that we can select and preview tiles for each LTM combination, instead of just adding a fixed number to the base tiles. If we did it for all possible combinations (2^number of items), that'd take up a lot of space, but if the quest designer only uses a few LTM items, the set could be substantially reduced. Of course, implementing such would take some work.

[jman2050]

I suppose making Link's tiles selectable would be another change I can do. making the LTm's fully flexible would be the best course of action, come to think of it more.

Some other stuff

6. New screen flag: Secrets disable timed warps. basically, when a secret is triggered on a screen with this flag enabled, any time warp set up for the screen will be automatically nulled. This is mostly a custom boss convinience, as it will allow the user to assure that whatever happens after a boss is 'hit' won't be interrupted by the time warp.
7. THE MIDI BUG HAS BEEN FIXED Don't ask me how, don't even ask me why the bug occured at all. All I can confirm to everyone was that it was indeed an Allegro problem.

[*b*]

I suppose making Link's tiles selectable would be another change I can do. making the LTm's fully flexible would be the best course of action, come to think of it more.

YES! do that! it would simplify everything regarding the Link Tile Modifier

[PolygonX8]

While on the topic of Link, would it be possible for making another set (2 or 3 sprites, depnding on normal or BS animation) for the other side direction? The walking sideways tiles go right in the set, so how about walking "left" tiles? :shrug:

[Dark Nation]

That's part of the plan for the Link Sprite modification.

[4matsy]

One thing I've always wanted to see in the Link tiles department is a second frame for classic Link's upward walking animation...flipping that one tile just looks plain ugly, even in the classic set.

[Sephiroth]

I suppose making Link's tiles selectable would be another change I can do. making the LTm's fully flexible would be the best course of action, come to think of it more.

Some other stuff

6. New screen flag: Secrets disable timed warps. basically, when a secret is triggered on a screen with this flag enabled, any time warp set up for the screen will be automatically nulled. This is mostly a custom boss convinience, as it will allow the user to assure that whatever happens after a boss is 'hit' won't be interrupted by the time warp.
7. THE MIDI BUG HAS BEEN FIXED Don't ask me how, don't even ask me why the bug occured at all. All I can confirm to everyone was that it was indeed an Allegro problem.
You fixed the MIDI Bug! Quick! Send me that alleg41.dll! That bug is too darn annoying. :P

[Solaris_Omega]

First of all, good work thus far on Beta 1 and 2. To clear my name however.

Yes, I did do something extremely stupid about 2 or 3 years back with a Dark Natlon post, It was semi-related to my brother in all reality, but I was the fuel. I was young and dumb back then, to which I have cleaned up my act greatly. A wierd conspiracy theory was started saying that I was PM coming back in a different form(new user). The reason that got started is because I happened to use the same avatar by accident. I did mess with BigJoe a bit about it. Other than being banned about 3 years ago with the Link Hylia one, I have not been temp banned or in trouble in any way. I would not dare flame anyone in GD, thats just an invitation to be banned. Awhile back when BigJoe made his strong armed moderators post in GB, I came out and told them that I had to make this account because when my Link Hylia account was temp-banned, they never returned me back to an unbanned status. I was told to pick one account or the other. I picked this one because for once, I actually was doing something productive on the forums(i.e ZC Beta Testing). I am not banned now either, I just have to use a faulty computer while my other is being fixed. So I'll apologize for not helping very much as of late, but I stated above whats going on. Its kinda hard for me to test on this computer, but I should finally be back at full steam on Monday or Tuesday. I up for third party programming to help out anyway I can, I just don't think its likely that anyone will ask me to help now though. I am all open to helping out with ZC anyway I can.

[jman2050]

Eh, to be honest i could care less what happened 2 or 3 years ago... don't know how DN feels, but I would tend not to take activities outside of ZC into account when dealing with the beta testers.

Oh yeah, and another change

8. The first iteration of a new ZQuest feature: Preview Mode

Tired of setting up combo cycling and placing secrets, closing ZQ, opening up ZC, testing out the screen, finding a small bug, closing ZC, opening ZQ, and making that quick fix, wasting 3-5 minutes on a problem that should've taken 10 seconds to fix? Then Preview mode is the feature for you. When enabled in ZQ, it allows you the chance to see the effects of the more dynamic elements of a quest screen. made an elaborate system of tiered secret flags? Simply enable Preview mode, press 'S', and see the secrets trigger right before your eyes. Set up combo cycling for an elaborate boss? Enable Preview mode, press C, and watch the combos animate and cycle through each other, checking to see if it was done correctly. tired of having to go to the tile warp/side warp menu every time you want to check a warp? Go into preview mode, press 1 or 2 (for tile and side respectively) to easily warp between screens. Wanna easy way to test timed warps? Simply enable preview mode, press 3, and on screens with timed warps defined watch it cycle to the next screen without pressing anything. Wanna check your animations, secrets, and combo cycling again? Press 'R' to revert the screen to it's original form. Finally, 'F' will freeze the animations, allowing use of 'A' to advance frame by frame. 'Q' and 'W' also work, allowing you to see the changes to combo properties and walkability in real-time.

It's still somewhat rough, and only operates using the keyboard keys. Eventually, I want preview mode to become more functional as well as have a more usable interface. The goal regardless is to minimize the amount of time spent switching between ZC and ZQ when building your quest, allowing you to focus all your play-testing on balancing, progression of game play, and flow of execution.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Should I release the beta soon or fear being torn limb from limb by anticipation? You decide ^_^

[Cloral]

One word: sweet!
As you say though, it would be nice to have it not solely based off of keyboard keys - one problem there being that we then have to memorize what they are. When you are in preview mode you lose the ability to edit, right? Perhaps you could then overlay the combos and the thing at the bottom of the screen with buttons to press. Another idea would be to turn that bottom thing (we should name it so I can refer to it concisely) into a listing that reminds the user of what all the usable keystrokes are so they don't have to memorize them. Like:

R - Revert Screen
S - Trigger Secrets
F - Freeze Animations
...

Or if we use buttons:

[Revert Screen] [Trigger Secrets] [Freeze Animations]

Either way would be really helpful.

[jman2050]

One word: sweet!
As you say though, it would be nice to have it not solely based off of keyboard keys - one problem there being that we then have to memorize what they are. When you are in preview mode you lose the ability to edit, right? Perhaps you could then overlay the combos and the thing at the bottom of the screen with buttons to press. Another idea would be to turn that bottom thing (we should name it so I can refer to it concisely) into a listing that reminds the user of what all the usable keystrokes are so they don't have to memorize them. Like:

R - Revert Screen
S - Trigger Secrets
F - Freeze Animations
...

Or if we use buttons:

[Revert Screen] [Trigger Secrets] [Freeze Animations]

Either way would be really helpful.

You took the words right out of my head, as this is exactly what i've been planning on doing :) you do lose the ability to edit, yes. Think of it as being in the same 'state' as when you're placing flags in ZQ. mouse clicks on the menu aside from what we specifically specify are disabled, as are the normal keystroke operations. Also note that this is merely an observation mode, so it won't do ANYTHING to your quest in terms of changing it.

[Solaris_Omega]

I am anxious for this myself. I kinda wonder if now that ZC had gotten to the point of having alot of the things we all want in it, is it time to start making it innovatively easier to use? I can't wait to see this one happen

[ShadowTiger]

jman, I must say, I am awed, floored, and bewildered. :p Extraordinarily so. Impressed takes precedance over those though.

A few questions and comments, really. One, what exactly does "preview mode" look like? I mean, it seems rather ... well ... hard to believe. o_O'

How does it handle havinig multiple kinds of secrets on the same screen? For example, you have sword triggers, button triggers, fire triggers, enemy secrets, .. a lot of these are intertwined, but remain somehow seperate at the same time. And tiered secrets! I mean, .. jman, you saw what C-Dawg did in Sabotage Dragoon with those "trains" of buttons, like under the Dusted Forest, and in the Inverted tower with the "fairy" that you remain under to guide you through the damage floors. So yes, how does it handle such complex tiered secrets like that?

Oh, does it also work on layers? :p

Oh, and what about the undercombo?


Once more, VERY impressed. This is like, ... ... having a whole bunch of dreams come true at the same time. :drool: :laughing: Dude, you are SO the man. :highfive: I so underexaggerated that too.

[LinktheMaster]

Damn fine work jman. This will certainly make things easier on us quest makers and I must say that I've never been looking forward to a new ZC like this one, this is just plain awesome. :thumbsup:

[Nick]

Whoa!

I mess with a lot of secret combos... and this... this would save me loads of time with loading a quest in ZC over and over again to test them! :)

I think 2.11 is going to blow people's socks off if it gets stable.

[jman2050]

Not all the functionality is in yet, as it is still work-in-progress. Son enough, it should be easy to seperately trigger secrets and have them behave as they do in ZQ, as well as look at undercombo effects, show special items, and even show what strings would look like on-screen and let you step through each linked string in the sequence. As for what it looks like? For now, it looks exactly like it does when editing a screen, except none of the menus or interactive elements can be interfaced with aside from what I described. As the feature gets more complete though, the extra space would be overlayed with information to help out the ZQer in preview mode.

And yes, it can do tiered secrets, animations and all ^_^

[ShadowTiger]

Son enough, it should be easy to seperately trigger secrets and have them behave as they do in ZQ, as well as look at undercombo effects, show special items, and even show what strings would look like on-screen and let you step through each linked string in the sequence.And you have a little "Avatar" that gets to walk over these and trigger them? What about sensing damage? And obviously, pardon the initial ignorance we're all bound to have, but so how do you trigger each secret, if you have one keyboard button per item you want to trigger? There's no seperate button for sword secrets, button secrets, etc.

[*b*]

anybody notice that neither DN nor fcf have said anything since this was announced. somone's jealous, me thinks!

this sounds incredible, jman. I can't wait to make use of this feature. though, how does it work exactly? do the kays that were mentioned earlier controll everything that happens, or is some of it automatic, and those keys trigger certain events?

[idontknow]

PREVIEW MODE! Sweet! Also, when in preview mode, pressing E once should spawn the enemies. Enemies that enter from the side will do so and enemies placed via enemy placement flags will spawn at such places. Pressing E again will make all enemies disappear.

Oh! And pressing M in preview mode should toggle the music on & off

[jman2050]

I'm not going to place the entire engine in ZQ. That'd be a waste, so no enemy spawning ^_^. Also, playing music is Dmap dependent, not screen dependent, and since the screens have no direct association with Dmaps, knowing what music to play if such a function were added wouldn't work.

BH4 - An avatar isn't displayed, though that does remind me to add a function in editing mode that lets you see the item/link spawn points without having to go to that tab at the bottom of the screen. As for triggerring secrets, I would only need 2 keys at most because of the way secrets are triggered (the behavior being that triggering one flag triggers ALL secret combos defined, with the exception of an enemies->secret room in which the secret tile flags [16-31] are triggered by killing enemies, whilst all other flags are triggered seperately), so that isn't a problem. Also note that preview mode is strictly for examining the technical aspects of your quest to make sure they work. Actual playtesting would still employ ZC, as it should.

*b* - The keys control certain behaviors. By default, preview mode doesn't do anything that ZQ wouldn't do normally, except that you can't edit. It's only by employing the keys that you can trigger and watch the dynamic elements go into effect. You'll probably understand better once the new beta is released.

[Sephiroth]

@_@

ZOMG.. This is going to be so useful. o.o