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AlexMax
11-24-2003, 06:35 PM
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,61341,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1


Congress approved a bill on Friday that expands the reach of the Patriot Act, reduces oversight of the FBI and intelligence agencies and, according to critics, shifts the balance of power away from the legislature and the courts.

A provision of an intelligence spending bill will expand the power of the FBI to subpoena business documents and transactions from a broader range of businesses -- everything from libraries to travel agencies to eBay -- without first seeking approval from a judge.

Under the Patriot Act, the FBI can acquire bank records and Internet or phone logs simply by issuing itself a so-called national security letter saying the records are relevant to an investigation into terrorism. The FBI doesn't need to show probable cause or consult a judge. What's more, the target institution is issued a gag order and kept from revealing the subpoena's existence to anyone, including the subject of the investigation.

The new provision in the spending bill redefines the meaning of "financial institution" and "financial transaction." The wider definition explicitly includes insurance companies, real estate agents, the U.S. Postal Service, travel agencies, casinos, pawn shops, ISPs, car dealers and any other business whose "cash transactions have a high degree of usefulness in criminal, tax or regulatory matters."

Justice Department officials tried earlier this year to write a bill to expand the Patriot Act. A draft -- dubbed Patriot II -- was leaked and caused such an uproar that Justice officials backed down. The new provision inserts one of the most controversial aspects of Patriot II into the spending bill.

Intelligence spending bills are considered sensitive, so they are usually drafted in secret and approved without debate or public comment.

Chris Schroeder, a Duke law professor and former assistant attorney general in the office of legal counsel at the Justice Department, said the re-insertion shows that "people who want to expand the powers of the FBI didn't want to stop after Patriot II was leaked."

"They are going to insert these provisions on a stealth basis," Schroeder said. "It's insidious."

James X. Dempsey, executive director of the Center for Democracy and Technology, echoed Shroeder's analysis.

"On its face, it's a cryptic and seemingly innocuous amendment," Dempsey said. "It wasn't until after it passed both houses that we saw it. The FBI and CIA like to try to graft things like this into intelligence bills."

House Intelligence Committee chairman Porter Goss (R-Florida) defended the new definition, saying it was necessary to keep pace with terrorists and the changing economy.

"This provision brings the definition of 'financial institution' up to date with the reality of the financial industry," Goss said on the House floor. "This provision will allow those tracking terrorists and spies to 'follow the money' more effectively and thereby protect the people of the United States more effectively."

The expansion surprised many in Congress, including some members of the intelligence committees who recently began reconsidering the scope of the Patriot Act.

Timothy Edgar, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union, decried the expansion of an executive power that is not subject to judicial oversight.

"The more that checks and balances against government abuse are eroded, the greater that abuse," Edgar said. "We're going to regret these initiatives down the road."

National security letters, or NSLs, are among the most-used antiterrorism powers, and are among the least-known or scrutinized. The Bush administration has pushed to expand their use. In the spring, it tried unsuccessfully to allow the CIA and the military the right to issue such subpoenas.

The FBI says it can't say how many times it has issued itself NSLs because of national security. A few weeks ago, civil liberties groups forced the Justice Department to release some of those records, but Justice handed over a six-page, blacked-out list.

Other portions of the funding bill eliminate annual reports to Congress on several controversial matters, such as foreign companies' involvement in the spread of weapons of mass destruction, the effectiveness of the intelligence community and antidrug efforts.

The bill also nixes reports on how many times national security letters are used to access individuals' credit reports.

After a joint committee reconciled the two versions of the bill, both houses had to vote to approve the compromise version, which is usually considered a formality. While Friday's Senate vote was a voice vote, on Thursday, 15 Republicans in the House broke ranks and voted against the entire intelligence-funding bill in protest of the national security provision. The bill passed by a vote of 264 to 163.

Though debate was limited, a handful of representatives, including Butch Otter (R-Idaho), spoke out against the bill.

"In our fight for our nation to make the world a safe place, we must not turn our backs on our own freedoms," Otter said. "Expanding the use of administrative subpoenas and threatening our system of checks and balances is a step in the wrong direction."

The ACLU's Edgar said he was surprised by the extent of the Republican defections. It shows how views in both parties have changed about granting unchecked antiterrorism powers.

Edgar also argued the extension may anger strong interest groups -- such as casinos, Realtors and travel agents -- who previously weren't part of the civil liberties debate.

"They had no idea this was coming," Edgar said. "This is going to help to continue to expand the list of people and organizations that are asking questions about civil liberties and Patriot Act powers."

Members of Congress who were upset by the provisions and the process that led to their passage may hold hearings on the matter early next year.

Neither the chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kansas) nor the ranking minority member, Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-West Virginia), responded to requests for comment.

The FBI directed press calls to the Department of Justice, which didn't respond by press time.

The Justice Department has vigorously defended its use of the Patriot Act for both terrorist and nonterrorist investigations and set up a website to respond to its critics.

So this means the FBI can supena information about anyone from anywhere and any organization with no approvaol from a judge. A gag order on the person that got the supena, so they can't say anything.

What's more, they're doing it with a confidential bill, and is not being publisized.

Does this make anyone else uncomfortable?

Pablo
11-24-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by AlexMax
So this means the FBI can supena information about anyone from anywhere and any organization with no approvaol from a judge. A gag order on the person that got the supena, so they can't say anything.

What's more, they're doing it with a confidential bill, and is not being publisized.

Does this make anyone else uncomfortable?

You don't like it? Protest. Personally, I'm resigned to the fact that in this country there is little privacy. I've given up being pissed off.

Dracula
11-24-2003, 08:46 PM
All I really have to say is...

I DIDN'T DO IT.
*runs like hell to Canada*

Starkist
11-24-2003, 08:55 PM
At last week's Senate hearing, Joe Biden of Delaware didn't have to say that "the tide of criticism" being directed against the Patriot Act "is both misinformed and overblown," that "I stand by my support" of that law, and that the Ashcroft Justice Department has "done a pretty good job in terms of implementing" the law's provisions. But Biden did say all these things, anyway. And California's Dianne Feinstein went further still, in a stern and lengthy lecture about the concrete reality of U.S. anti-terrorism law--as opposed to the paranoiac fantasy version now being circulated throughout the land by the likes of Bob Barr and Howard Dean. How's about we concentrate on some facts, Feinstein suggested.

"I've tried to see what has happened in the complaints that have come in," she said, "and I've received to date 21,434 complaints about the Patriot Act." Except these turned out to be unrelated civil liberties gripes, or complaints about a "Patriot Act II" that doesn't yet exist. "I have never had a single [verified] abuse of the Patriot Act reported to me. My staff emailed the ACLU and asked them for instances of actual abuses. They emailed back and said they had none."

The widespread hullabaloo over the Patriot Act, Senator Feinstein concluded, proceeds from "substantial uncertainty . . . about what this bill actually does do." And "perhaps some ignorance," she added.

Source (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/291ryznn.asp)

Axel
11-25-2003, 05:00 PM
Ah, the Patriot Act, one of the sure signs that America is commited to flushing itself right down the toilet. I mean, that's right up there with the Alien and Sedition Acts and McCarthyism in the list of all things moronic in American legislative history.
Now our dear friend, and staunch Republican, Starkist tells us that the Patriot Act has not done anything objectionable and has indeed convicted a large number of terrorists. Here's the thing, Starkist, would we know whether anything objectionable was done under the Patriot Act? After all no warrant is needed for arrest, those who provide information are sworn to secrecy, and the trial is conducted in secret.
And is it really a question of whether or not the Patriot Act has been used objectionably? The question is truly is it constitutional and can it be used objectionably? No, and yes. The Patriot Act violates the bill of rights in allowing a secret trial and not requiring a warrant.
Its terms allow completely arbitrary arrests and have nothing to stop a 1984 environment from emerging except the goodwill of its users. Is such an outcome likely? Not a chance. Is it possible? Probably not. Its probably not worth worrying about on more than a political level.
That doesn't change the fact that it violates the Bill of Rights.

Starkist
11-25-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Axel
Now our dear friend, and staunch Republican, Starkist tells us that the Patriot Act has not done anything objectionable and has indeed convicted a large number of terrorists.

First, I never said a word. I let Joe Biden and Dianne Feinstein, two staunch Democrats do the talking for me.

Second, as Ms. Feinstein points out, there has never been a documented case of civil rights abuse under the auspices of the Patriot Act. You, Axel, are just another boy who cries wolf.

Axel
11-25-2003, 05:12 PM
now, gee, I thought I pointed out that there have been no documented cases against the Patriot Act. If nothing else I pointed out that you pointed it out.
Its terms allow completely arbitrary arrests and have nothing to stop a 1984 environment from emerging except the goodwill of its users. Is such an outcome likely? Not a chance. Is it possible? Probably not. Its probably not worth worrying about on more than a political level.
hmm... yep seems pretty close to me.

Starkist
11-25-2003, 05:45 PM
Then stop crying wolf. :shrug:

Axel
11-25-2003, 05:50 PM
hmm... "crying wolf" if I understand the allusion correctly you seem to be saying that I am repeating the same false alarm continuosly. I wonder if anyone thought the oponents of McCarthy were crying wolf...

Starkist
11-25-2003, 05:58 PM
Bringing up McCarthy rather than judging the events of today in their own merits is a common technique used to dodge the real issue.

Patriot Act = McCarthy
Afghanistan/Iraq = Vietnam

Bring something to the table besides the past.

Melonhead
11-25-2003, 07:07 PM
Seems like the FBI is moving more towards a kind of "secret-police" set up.
Too often things are out the publics hands in the name of freedom, unfortunately.

TheGeepster
11-26-2003, 02:04 PM
My instinct says that perhaps bypassing the judge would be going too far, and could be abused.

However, I also understand that having to have a court give them permission to act may be the bottleneck.

I will only say that I do not yet have the complete picture, and I'm not decided yet on whether this is a bad thing, a good thing, or perhaps something of both.

(The fact remains that privacy and security tend to oppose each other, and therefore have to be balanced in order to attain the best combination of both. The good news is that they are not opposites, and so it isn't a zero-sum balance..)

Axel
11-26-2003, 03:40 PM
If the price of security is a loss of freedom, I'll take my chances.

Melonhead
11-26-2003, 04:52 PM
I found the quote I was looking for:
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.-Benjamin Franklin

Starkist
11-26-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Axel
If the price of security is a loss of freedom, I'll take my chances.

That's the point, Axel: You have not lost any freedom. Do you fear punishment for dissent? Al Gore ran a full page ad in the Washington Post saying that the Patriot Act takes away our freedom, and then turned around and criticized President Bush for a Republican ad that he claimed accused Democrats of being unpatriotic. Dissent is alive and well.

Mercy
11-26-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Starkist
Second, as Ms. Feinstein points out, there has never been a documented case of civil rights abuse under the auspices of the Patriot Act. You, Axel, are just another boy who cries wolf.
You really should try checking your facts (http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/special/03-07/index.htm) one of these days. I am starting to grow weary of always having to correct you.

...The 272 complaints received by the OIG during this reporting period that fell within the OIG's jurisdiction (i.e., that state a claim involving a DOJ component or employee) covered a wide variety of subjects. They included allegations of excessive force by BOP correctional officers, verbal abuse by BOP staff, rude treatment by INS inspectors, unwarranted cell searches by BOP officers, and illegal searches of personal residences and property by FBI agents. However, many of the 272 complaints in this category, while within the OIG's jurisdiction and couched as a "Patriot Act" or "civil rights" complaint, do not raise issues implicated by Section 1001. For example, the OIG received numerous complaints from inmates alleging that they have not received appropriate medical care, as well as e-mails from individuals asking about the status of immigration paperwork they had submitted to the INS. Consequently, after closely analyzing the complaints in this category, the OIG identified 34 that raised credible Patriot Act violations on their face. These allegations ranged in seriousness from alleged beatings of immigration detainees to BOP correctional officers allegedly verbally abusing inmates.


m.