From the pages of history...

[TheGeepster]

And whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the Legislators we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said articles of confederation and perpetual union - Articles of Confederation, 1777

If it were admitted that you who are dissatisfied hold the right side in the dispute, there still is no single good reason for precipitate action. Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him who has never yet forsaken this favored land are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty. - from Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861

And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution, upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind and the gracious favor of Almighty God. - from Emancipation Proclamation, 1863

-- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth. - from Gettysburg Address, 1863

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensible supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who would labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on the minds of peculiar structure, reason, and experience forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in the exclusion of religious principle. - from George Washington's Farewell Address, 1796

In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded on four essential human freedoms.
- The first is freedom of speech and expression - everywhere in the world.
- The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way - everywhere in the world.
- The third is freedom from want - which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants - everywhere in the world.
- The fourth is freedom from fear - which, translated into world terms, means a worldwide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor - anywhere in the world. - from The Four Freedoms, FDR, 1941

This nation has placed its destiny in the hands and heads and hearts of its millions of free men and women; and its faith in freedom under the guidance of God. Freedom means the supremacy of human rights everywhere. Our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights or keep them. Our strength is our unity of purpose.
To that high concept there can be no end save victory. - also from The Four Freedoms

[Ich]

This would get more replies if you edited it and added a concluding statement, something that gives all these quotes relevance, and what knowledge they contain that we need to remember, what is still pertinent nowadays. What truth lies in these statements made by all these very dead people?

[carrot red]

I think this was posted in reply to a dispute between Geepa and Axel (I might be wrong there, if so thousand apologies) about the "One Nation under God" thing.
If so, I would have modified the title and added a concluding statement like you suggest, Walross.

[TheGeepster]

Well, I shall add a conclusion from these statements, among which I find George Washington's argument one of the most telling and direct.

In each of these, there is a direct theistic reference, and God (by one title or another) is stated to be the foundation and the cause and guide for our nation. Many of the same men who put together the Articles of Confederation which governed us for our first decade also put together the US Constitution. They are the ones who called upon a Creator God as witness to the justness of breaking with England. Lincoln, and Washington, long considered two of the greatest presidents during times of trial and testing (Washington as the president of an infant nation in a great experiment, and Lincoln during a time when the nation was splitting) both show that faith and the morality derived from it are essential parts of this nation's foundation. FDR in the speech describing the Four Freedoms calls for freedom of religion everywhere, and definitely has in mind that people will worship God. He also recognizes God as the guide of our nation.

It is my contention, and will always be, that our nation, if nothing else, has a clear and definite foundation in an active theistic belief.

The core basis of the United States was the God-given liberty of every man. But without a God, these liberties become man-given liberties. And what man gives, man can take away, but what God gives is not for man to take away.

How's that for a summary?

[Axel]

1. that is NOT part of the Gettysburg address. I have a photocopy of Lincoln's draft of the speach. no where does it say "under God"
2. nothing from personal documents nor from the Articles of Confederation really say anything meaningful
3. no matter what anyone said, its still unconstitutional
4. Voltaire, among the founders of the philosophie the founding fathers used, was an atheist.
5. the state must be officialy atheistic because if it makes any move towards an official religion it would violate the 1st ammendment, which guarantees seperation of church and state as well as freedom of religion.
6. my own quotes.
"Christianity is the most perverted system on the earth." - Thomas Jefferson
"If there is a god he is either insane or evil" - Mark Twain
"Congress shall make no law untowards the establishment of an official religion, nor shall it restrict the rights thereof" - the 1st ammendment to the Constitution. and the 3rd ammendment proposed by the Bill of Rights
"Crush the infamous thing!" - Voltaire, speaking about the Church

[TheGeepster]

Atheism is a religion, or system of thought on spiritual matters. That being so, the government has no more right to establish atheism as its official religion than it does Catholicism, Baptist, Jehovah's Witness, or any other particular church or faith you can name.

Atheism is also hostile to faith-based religions, and as such, its establishment in government would tend towards the prohibition of the free exercise of religion.

Again I point out that "wall of separation of church and state" appears nowhere in the Constitution, nor does it appear in documents leading up to such. It appears in Jefferson's personal writings. And the words of George Washington upon his leaving office are equally as valid as those and strongly affirm the place of personal faith inside of government.

It is not inconsistent for faith and religious values to have a role in government and yet government to stay out of religion. And insomuch as that is true, the wall of which Jefferson spoke can be maintained at the same time religion is influencing the policies our government has.

As for the drafts of the Gettysburg address not having "under God", that proves little. Lincoln often affirmed his faith in a Creator God (The only way all men could be created equal, and that is the foundation of our nation.) which guides this nation and its policy. As a matter of fact, I would have to ask where this misquote comes from, because the whole issue of church and state only popped up in the last 50 years, and the official acceptance of "under God" being in that speech comes well before it. It is entirely plausible, with those being drafts, that Lincoln decided to add those words into his speech afterwards.

Regardless, it is blatantly obvious that this nation considered itself, by and large, to be a Christian nation (or at least a theistic nation) up until around the 1950's or so, and that "one nation, under God" was an accepted description.

Now I ask you this. If the liberties upon which the Constitution is based are God given as stated in the Declaration of Indepence by most of the same men who put this nation together, and there is in fact no God as you state; then upon what are those liberties now to be based? If they are based on men's laws, then what is to prevent man from changing such laws, and removing these liberties?

Justice is based on laws. Law is based on morality, though not all morality makes good law. Morality is based on the concept of right and wrong, but without a God, there can be no right or wrong except the natural chaotic order of survival, or the shifting values of men. Either one of the two are wholly inadequate for the governing of a nation of civilized people.

George Washington spoke well in my quote of him above, that Morality and Religion are the 2 indispensible supports of political prosperity.