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Beldaran
03-01-2003, 04:24 PM
If you are at all interested in why we should or shouldn't attack Iraq, then READ this now. It's long but it's totally worth it. If you refuse to read it because you are too lazy, then you have no right to argue your position any further since you won't hear out the other side.

The article:

A CASE FOR WAR
I will not attempt to explain the reasons for attacking Iraq because Iraq is
part of a bigger picture, and the attack there will be one battle in a much
longer war. Trying to understand one particular battle without the context
of the larger war is an exercise in futility. (By analogy: what excuse is
there in 1942 for the US to attack Vichy France in Morocco? Vichy France
wasn't our enemy; Germany and Italy were. Taken out of the context of the
larger war, the Torch landings in Africa make little sense. It's only when
you look at the bigger picture of the whole war that you can understand
them.)
We must attack Iraq. We must totally conquer the nation. Saddam must be
removed from power, and killed if possible, and the Baath party must be
shattered.
But Saddam isn't our enemy. bin Laden (may he burn in hell) is not our
enemy. Iraq isn't our enemy. al Qaeda isn't our enemy. The Taliban weren't
our enemies. They are merely symptoms of decay.
In most wars, there's a government or core organization which you can
identify as the enemy. It isn't always a single person; in World War II it
was Hitler and Mussolini in Europe, but it wasn't Tojo in Japan. Tojo was
deposed in 1944, but the war went on. It also wasn't Hirohito; he mostly
kept his hands off of policy. Still, it was the Japanese government, and
that could still be understood.
But in this war there is no single government or small group of them, no
man, no organization. Our enemy is a culture which is deeply diseased.
It's really difficult to exactly delineate who our enemies are, but they
number in millions. They're Arab and Muslim, but not every Arab is among
them, and most Muslims are not.
But even to discuss it in these terms is to cross the boundaries of
political correctness. Not that I care, but it isn't politically possible
for our leaders to say things like these, which makes the political
wrangling all the more difficult. I think that they know what I'm about to
say, and I at least am free to say what I believe whether others find it
offensive or racist.
Islam is larger than greater Arabia, and the majority of Muslims are not
Arab. But in the beginning, Islam was both a religion and a political
movement. The Qur'an is a source of moral teachings for everyday life,
telling people how to live and how to act towards one another. But it's also
a manual for conquest, describing how to face enemies, how to fight, how to
treat those who have been conquered, how to treat prisoners, how to treat
enemy soldiers.
It lays a dual obligation on Muslims: to live a good life and to spread
Islam to the entire world, by any means necessary. All successful widespread
religions are evangelistic to a greater or lesser extent (with Judaism being
the notable exception), but I know of no other major religion whose holy
teachings include instructions for how to go to war to spread the faith.
Until Mohammed, the Arab tribes were divided and spent most of their time
fighting one another. The great achievement of Mohammed was to unite the
Arabs and face them outwards, strengthened and given will by his new
religion. And for two hundred years, nothing could stand in their way; they
created one of the great empires in the history of the world which was
bounded on the south by the Sahara, on the west by the Atlantic ocean, on
the north by Christendom, and on the east by the Hindu nations. Extending
from Spain to Iran, from Turkey to Egypt it was much larger and more
powerful than was the Roman Empire before it, and it lasted longer. Within
its borders art and science and poetry and architecture flourished.
But like all empires, it eventually fell. Unlike other empires, this was
against the word of God, for the Qur'an says that Islam will eventually
dominate the entire world. In reality, it's been in retreat for more than
three hundred years, and its decline became far more precipitous with the
collapse of the Ottomans. Once-great Arab nations became little more than
colonies for heathen Europeans, or economic dependents of America.
Our enemy is those who inherit the culture and heritage of that empire. Not
everyone within the empire's physical realm now partakes of that culture,
but many do.
I am having a difficult time coming up with a pithy term for our enemy. It's
hard. It isn't really greater Arabia. It certainly isn't Islam. Islamic
fundamentalism is a symptom of it, not the core. Arab nationalism and
imperialism is also a symptom of it, not the core. Each of those can and
does exist without the other, but they're both expressions of the real enemy
we face, something deeper than that.
To refer to it as Arab nostalgia is wrong, for many of those within the body
of our enemy inherit the beliefs and dogma which make them our enemies
without knowing where they came from. They aren't necessarily
traditionalists, for the same reason, though that's perhaps closer.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to use the partly-fallacious term "Arab
culture", accepting that not all Arab culture is our enemy and not all Arabs
are among our enemies.
Our enemy holds to a traditional belief, a traditional culture. Islam is a
core piece of that, but it isn't the whole thing, and not everyone who
believes in Islam is part of the enemy. Our enemy is the majority of the
people who live in what we think of as the large Arab nations, plus certain
other groups. Our enemy is concentrated in Egypt, Libya, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi
Arabia, and Syria, plus the Palestinians are part of it. There are lesser
concentrations of our enemy in Morocco, Algeria, Yemen, Oman and (non-Arab)
Pakistan.
And Iran is, as usual, a complicated aspect of it. While not being Arab, it
is closer culturally to the Arabs, and to a great extent our enemy also
holds sway there. The traditionalists and theocrats in Iran are part of our
enemy, even though not being Arab, because Persian Iran was a key part of
the original Arab/Islamic empire, and still retains much of that culture.
The problem with our enemy's culture is that in the 20th century it was
revealed as being an abject failure. By any rational calculation, it could
not compete, and not simply because the deck was stacked against it. The
problem was more fundamental; the culture itself contained the elements of
its own failure.
The only Arab nations which have prospered have done so entirely because of
the accident of mineral wealth. Using money from export of oil, they
imported a high tech infrastructure. They drive western cars. They use
western cell phones. They built western high-rise steel frame buildings.
They created superhighways and in every way implemented the trappings of
western prosperity.
Or rather, they paid westerners to create all those things for them. They
didn't build or create any of it themselves. It's all parasitic. And they
also buy the technical skill to keep it running. The technological
infrastructure of Saudi Arabia (to take an example) is run by a small army
of western engineers and technicians and managers who are paid well, and who
live in isolation, and who keep it all working. If they all leave, the
infrastructure will collapse. Saudi Arabia does not have the technical skill
to run it, or the ability to produce the replacement parts which would be
needed. It's all a sham, and they know it. Everything they have which looks
like modern culture was purchased. They themselves do not have the ability
to produce, or even to operate, any of it.
The diseased culture of our enemy suffers from all seven of the deep flaws
Ralph Peters identifies as condemning nations to failure in the modern
world. Peters makes a convincing case that there is a correlation
approaching unity between the extent to which a nation or culture suffers
from these flaws and its inability to succeed in the 21st century.
He lists them as follows:
Restrictions on the free flow of information.
The subjugation of women.
Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure.
The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization.
Domination by a restrictive religion.
A low valuation of education.
Low prestige assigned to work.
And carrying all seven of these, our enemy is trying to compete in the 21st
century footrace with both feet cast into buckets of concrete. They are
profoundly handicapped by the very values that they hold most dear and that
they believe make them what they are.
The nations and the peoples within the zone of our enemy's culture are
complete failures. Their economies are disasters. They make no contribution
to the advance of science or engineering. They make no contribution to art
or culture. They have no important diplomatic power. They are not respected.
Most of their people are impoverished and miserable and filled with
resentment, and those who are not impoverished are living a lie.
They hate us. They hate us because our culture is everything theirs is not.
Our culture is vibrant and fecund; our economies are successful. Our
achievements are magnificent. Our engineering and science are advancing at
breathtaking speed. Our people are fat and happy (relatively speaking). We
are influential, we are powerful, we are wealthy. "We" are the western
democracies, but in particular "we" are the United States, which is the most
successful of the western democracies by a long margin. America is the most
successful nation in the history of the world, economically and
technologically and militarily and even culturally.
Our culture as exported is condemned as being lowbrow in many places, but
it's hard to deny how pervasive and influential it is. Baywatch was total
dreck, but it was also the most successful syndicated television program
around the world in history, racking up truly massive audiences each week.
Our culture is seductive on every level; those elsewhere who are exposed to
it find it attractive. It isn't always "high culture"; but some of it is,
and with the world revolution in telecommunications it's impossible for
anyone in the world to avoid seeing it and being exposed to it.
Nor can anyone ignore our technology, which is definitely not lowbrow, nor
our scientific achievements.
We're everything that they think they should be, everything they once were,
and by our power and success we throw their modern failure into stark
contrast, especially because we've gotten to where we are by doing
everything their religion says is wrong. We've deeply sinned, and yet we've
won. They are forced to compare their own accomplishments to ours because we
are the standard of success, and in every important way they come up badly
short. In most of the contests it's not just that our score is higher, it's
that their score is zero.
They have nothing whatever they can point to that can save face and preserve
their egos. In every practical objective way we are better than they are,
and they know it.
And since this is a "face" culture, one driven by pride and shame, that is
intolerable. Nor is it something we can easily redress. The oft-proposed
idea of increasing aid and attempting to eliminate poverty may well help in
South America and sub-Saharan Africa, but it will not defuse the hatred of
our Arab/Islamic enemies, for it is our success that they hate, not the
fruits of that success.
It isn't that they also want to be rich. Indeed, the majority of the most
militant members of al Qaeda came from Saudi Arabia, out of comfortable
existence. What they want is to stay with their traditional culture and for
it to be successful, and that isn't possible. We can make them rich through
aid, but we can't make them successful because their failure is not caused
by us, but by the deep flaws in their culture. Their culture cannot succeed.
It is too deeply and fundamentally crippled.
Everything they think they know says that they should be successful. They
once were successful, creating and ruling a great empire, with a rich
culture. God says they will be successful; it's right there in the Qur'an.
God lays on them the duty to dominate the world, but they can't even
dominate their own lands any longer. They face a profound crisis of faith,
and it can only resolve one of three ways.
First, the status quo can continue. They can continue to fail, sit in their
nations, and accept their plight. By clinging to their culture and their
religion they may be ideologically pure, but they will have to continue to
live with the shame of being totally unable to compete. Solution one: they
can stagnate.
The second thing they can do is to accept that their culture and their
religion are actually the problem. They can recognize that they will have to
liberalize their culture in order to begin to achieve. They can embrace the
modern world, and embrace western ways at least in part. They can break the
hold of Islamic teachings; discard Sharia; liberate their women; start to
teach science and engineering in their schools instead of the study of the
Qur'an; and secularize their societies. Solution two: they can reform.
Some Arab nations have begun to do this, and to the extent that they have
they have also started to succeed. But this is unacceptable to the majority;
it is literally sinful. It is heresy. What good does it do to succeed in the
world if, by so doing, you condemn your soul to hell?
Which leaves only one other way: become relatively competitive by destroying
all other cultures which are more capable. You level the playing field by
tearing down all the mountains rather than filling in the valleys; you make
yourself the tallest by shooting everyone taller than you are. Solution
three: they can lash out, fight back.
It's vitally important to understand that this is the reason they're
fighting back. It's not to gain revenge for some specific action in the past
on our part. It isn't an attempt to influence our foreign policy. Their goal
is our destruction, because they can't keep hold on what they have and still
think of themselves as being successful as long as we exist and continue to
outperform them.
al Qaeda grew out of this deepening resentment and frustration within the
failed Arab culture. It is the first manifestation of solution three, but as
long as the deep disease continues in the culture of our enemy, it won't be
the last. Its initial demands to the US were a bit surprising, and not very
well known. (And obscured by the fact that as their struggle continued
recently, they kept changing their stated demands in hopes of attracting
allies from elsewhere in the Arab sphere.)
The original demand was for a complete cessation of contact between America
and Arabia. Not just a pullout of our soldiers from holy Arab soil, but
total isolation so that the people of greater Arabia would no longer be
exposed in any way to us or our culture or our values. No television, no
radio, no music, no magazines and books, no movies. No internet. And that
isn't possible; you can't go backward that way.
But it's interesting that this shows their real concern. If they're no
longer exposed to us, they are no longer shamed by comparing their failure
to our success, and no longer seduced by it and tempted to discard their own
culture and adopt ours.
Solution three manifests, and will continue to manifest, in many ways.
Another way it manifests is in a new Arab imperialism, an ambition in some
quarters to recreate the Arab empire and by so doing to regain political
greatness. Arab nationalism doesn't directly spring from Islam, but it does
spring from this deep frustration and resentment caused by the abject
failure of the enemy culture, and it's most prominent practitioner is Saddam
Hussein.
Both al Qaeda's terrorist attacks, and Saddam's attempts to incorporate
other Arab nations into Iraq, spring from the same deep cause. But when I
say that al Qaeda and Saddam are not the real enemy, it's because they both
arise due to a deeper cause which is the true enemy. If we were to stamp out
al Qaeda as a viable organization and reduce it to an occasional annoyance,
and remove Saddam's WMDs no matter how, by conquest or inspections, someone
else somewhere else would spring up and we would again be in peril. We
cannot end this war by only treating the symptoms of al Qaeda and Saddam,
though they must be dealt with as part of that process. This war is actually
a war between the modern age and traditional Arab culture, and as long as
they stagnated and felt resentment quietly, it wasn't our war.
It became our war when al Qaeda started bringing it to our nation. With a
series of successively more deadly attacks culminating in the attacks in NYC
and Washington last year, it became clear that we in the United States could
no longer ignore it, and had to start working actively to remove the danger
to us. We didn't pick this war, it picked us, but we can't turn away from
it. If we ignore it, it will keep happening.
But the danger isn't al Qaeda as such, though that's the short term
manifestation of the danger. This war will continue until the traditional
crippled Arab culture is shattered. It won't end until they embrace reform
or have it forced on them. Until a year ago, we were willing to be patient
and let them embrace it slowly. Now we have no choice: we have to force them
to reform because we cannot be safe until they do.
And by reform I mean culturally and not politically. The reform isn't just
abjuration of weapons of mass destruction. It isn't just promising not to
attack any longer. What they're going to have to do is to fix all seven of
Ralph Peters' problems, and once they've done so, their nations won't be
recognizable.
First, they will seem much more western. Second, they'll start to succeed,
for as Peters notes, nations which fix these problems do become competitive.
What he's describing isn't symptoms, its deep causes.
We're facing a 14th century culture engaged in a 14th century war against
us. The problem is that they are armed with 20th century weapons, which may
eventually include nuclear weapons. And they embrace a culture which honors
dying in a good cause, which means that deterrence can't be relied on if
they get nuclear weapons.
Why is it that the US is concerned about Iraq getting nukes when we don't
seem to be as concerned about Pakistan or India or Israel? Why are we
willing to invade Iraq to prevent it from getting nukes, but not Pakistan to
seize the ones it developed? It's because those nations don't embrace a
warrior culture where suicide in a good cause, even mass death in a good
cause, is considered acceptable. (Those kinds of things are present in
Pakistan but don't rule there as yet.)
It's certainly not the case that the majority of those in the culture which
is our enemy would gladly die. But many of those who make the decisions
would be willing to sacrifice millions of their own in exchange for millions
of ours, especially the religious zealots. If such people get their hands on
nuclear weapons, then our threat of retaliation won't prevent them from
using them against us, or threatening to do so. Which is why we can't let it
happen. The chance of Israeli or Pakistani or Indian nukes being used
against us is acceptably small. If Arabs get them, then eventually one will
be used against us. It's impossible to predict who will do it, or when, or
where, or what the proximate reason will be, but it's inevitable that it
will happen. The only way to prevent it is to keep Arabs from getting nukes,
and that is why Iraq is now critically important and why time is running
out.
It's wrong to say that this would be "irrational" on their part. It is a
reasoned decision based on an entirely different set of axioms, leading to a
result totally unacceptable to us. But they're not insane or irrational.
Even though they're totally rational, deterrence ultimately can't stop them
from using nuclear weapons against us.
All major wars started by someone else that you eventually come to win start
with a phase where you try to consolidate the situation, to stop the enemy's
advance. Then you go onto the offensive, take the war to him, and finish it.
Afghanistan and Iraq are the two parts of the consolidation phase of this
war. al Qaeda had to be crippled and Saddam has to be destroyed in order to
gain us time and adequate safety to go onto the offensive, and to begin the
process which will truly end this war: to destroy Wahhabism, to shatter

Beldaran
03-01-2003, 04:25 PM
Islamic fundamentalism, to completely break the will of the Arabs and to
totally shame them.
Because they are a shame/pride culture, that latter may seem paradoxical.
But the reality is that we cannot win this by making them proud, for they
are not a stupid people and they actually have nothing to be proud of. We
can't make them proud because we can't give them anything to be proud of;
they need accomplishments of their own for pride, and their culture prevents
that. The only hope here is to make them so ashamed that they finally face
and accept the thing they are trying to hide from in choosing to fight back:
their culture is a failure, and the only way they can succeed is to discard
it and change.
It may sound strange to say, but what we have to do is to take the 14th
century culture of our enemies and bring it into the 17th century. Once
we've done that, then we can work on bringing them into the 21st century,
but that will be much easier.
But they've got to accept their own failure, personally and nationally and
culturally. That is the essential first step. They've got to accept that the
cause of their failure is their own culture, and that we're not. And they've
got to accept that the only way to succeed is to change. That will be a
difficult fight, and it's going to take decades. Along the way it's going to
be necessary to remove many governments which come to power and yet again
try to embrace the past and become militant, nationalistic, fundamentalist,
or again attempt to try to develop nuclear weapons.
Saddam has to go not merely because of his programs for development of WMDs.
He also has to go because he manifests Arab nationalism and imperialism.
Even if he actually consents to disarm, he and the Baathist party must be
destroyed. The reason that Iraq's nuclear weapon program is critical is that
it means we have to do so immediately; it makes it urgent. But removing
their program to develop nuclear weapons doesn't remove the deeper reason to
destroy Saddam and the Baathists, for they are part of the deeper pathology
which must be excised.
After the consolidation phase of this war is complete, with the destruction
of the Taliban and occupation and reform of Iraq, then we will go onto the
offensive and begin to strike at the deeper core of the problem. Part of
that will be to force reform on Saudi Arabia, through a combination of
diplomacy, persuasion, subversion, propaganda and possibly even military
force.
What this shows is just how deeply I disagree with many who oppose this war.
I am forthrightly proposing what some might call cultural genocide. The
existing Arab culture which is the source of this war is a total loss. It
must be shattered, annihilated, leaving behind no more traces in the Arab
lands than the Samurai left in Japan or the mounted knights left in Europe.
I am forthrightly stating that it will be necessary to destabilize the
entire middle east, which puts me exactly counter to European foreign
policy. No band-aid will do. It isn't possible to patch things up with
diplomacy because the rot runs too deep. Diplomacy now would be treating the
symptoms and not the true disease.
I am forthrightly stating that no amount of aid to the poor will stop the
aggression against us, which will anger liberals everywhere. It isn't our
wealth they hate, it's our accomplishments. The only way we can appease them
is to ourselves become failures, and that is a price I'm not willing to pay.
And I claim that the US bears essentially no blame for the fundamental
source of their anger towards us. They don't hate us because of our foreign
policy. They don't ultimately hate us because of past mistakes. They don't
hate what we do or what we have done. They hate what we are, and what we
show them that they are not. They hate our accomplishments and our
capabilities because we force them to see their own lack of accomplishments
and their incompetence and impotence.
And I'm saying that the US must do this, with help or without, because the
US will be the continuing target of Arab solution number 3 as long as this
resentment continues to boil, which it will do as long as Arab culture is
not shattered and reformed. We will accept help from others if it's truly
helpful, but we'll do it alone if we have to. (Or we will try and fail.)
We will be the primary target because we're the most successful. It's as
simple as that. And that means that this ultimately will be a unilateral war
by us; we're the ones with the most on the line. If the Arabs eventually do
get nukes, the first one they use will either be against Israel or against
us. It won't be against Europe, and if more conventional terrorist attacks
continue, the most damaging ones will be directed against us. We will pay
most of the price for this war, in staggering amounts of money, in losses on
the field of battle, and in death and destruction at home, and therefore any
talk of unified multilateral international action by a coalition of equals
is nonsense. The other nations won't risk as much and won't pay as much and
won't contribute as much and therefore deserve less say in what will happen.
In the mean time, now that al Qaeda has broken the ice, there will be
further terrorist attacks against us as long as this war continues. They may
be made by al Qaeda itself, or they may be made by other groups who will
spring up. We can't totally prevent that until we've removed the true cause
of those attacks: Arab cultural failure. Nothing short of that will stop the
attacks. They're part of the setbacks which always accompany any major war.
We'll do our best to foil such attacks, but inevitably some will succeed.
And those who don't understand the true issues will inevitably point to such
attacks as proof that our campaign is a failure, that by our aggressiveness
we raised further terrorist groups against us, that we should abandon the
war and try appeasement, concession, aid, humanistic solutions.
And they'll be wrong, because they don't understand the real reason why
we're being attacked and therefore why such approaches won't truly remove
the source of the grievance..
They won't stop hating us until they become successful and begin to achieve
on their own. We can't make them successful with material gifts, including
aid to their poor. We can only make them successful with cultural changes,
and they will resist that. Now that we've been attacked, we are ourselves
compelled to force them to accept those cultural changes, because that is
the only way short of actual genocide to remove the danger to ourselves.
This war will end when they change, but not before.
Go USA..........................

carrot red
03-01-2003, 05:16 PM
Very long article indeed. Very informative, it details a lot
I ignored about the Arab World and a lot I already knew.
All it does is reinforce my conviction : The necessity of the war against Iraq. Go USA!
But I guess I'm not your target.:shrug: Those who oppose the war are.

MasterSwordUltima
03-01-2003, 05:39 PM
Its not the people, leader, or even a collective group. Its their beleifs that the opposition, whether they are or are not the true enemy, must be terminated. This goes for both sides. But to accomplish this goal, most (if not all) beleive in military power to 'bend the thoughts' of others by litterally destroying the enemy's conrads. Sadly, this is unavoidable in most scenarios...

Ich
03-02-2003, 01:32 AM
Hmm... I bet the author has a couple of books on Arab sympathizers' "To be censored/forbidden" list.

Maverik X
03-02-2003, 02:11 AM
Hmm. More "enemy" bullshit. I couldn't read the end of it because I was disgusted.

Yes, the much of the culture hates us. But that doesn't mean that we should eliminate it. Rather, we should inform them. Look at Malcom X. He was a huge Muslim leader. He hated the white americans, and boycoted for seperation of white and black people. It took a pilgrimige to Mecca (I hope I'm spelling it right) to make him realize that white people were not the devil. But, this suggests that Muslims and Arabs can realize that americans are not the devil and that their campaigns against us are pointless. Only then can they embrace western culture.

This is what I believe. I challenge the people of this forum to convince me otherwise.

Jimmy the Saint
03-02-2003, 03:12 AM
Personally , I’ absolutely flabbergasted!

Now I read EVERY single word in that thread ! I can only agree in one thing , your right , it was long!

This will also be quite long and still , I’ll not address all the problems with your post I had! Now bear with me , although this post won’t be as long as yours , it will be long and I ask only the curtsey that if you read all of that you’ll at least read a different opinion on it?


Before even posting this I’ve noticed a few examples in how this forum leans towards the right, but I’ve read some things and in my very short time here and have even developed a respect for some people’s opinions on this forum.

Now I even (I add the “now I even” because from now on my post is going to seem disrespectful even though its not disrespect, but a different opinion) respect you because I like the way you went about start of the post i.e. warning it was a long post and making sure that if the people with a different view wanted to object , they’d at least read your opinion !

I’ve done this.

No doubt you’ll try and label me a “typical European liberal” and in your own mind use that to reinforce your own opinion of the general European stance!

(I’ve so many points to make but even now the points you made that I disagreed with are fading from my mind! I’ve a bad memory , but I’ll try to make some of the points that I haven’t forgot!)

I’m beginning to believe that it is in fact the USA that is the “War like” race and they who need some defined enemy to “battle with” . I mean if you read your post you’re struck with your need to define your enemy ! Perhaps the USA has been a bit lost without the U.S.S.R.??
I seen no mention that I can remember about the U.S.’s last urge to quell a culture i.e. communism! And quite frankly it was a HUGE FAILURE to do so, but what I read only pointed out some extreme views on how to crush the latest “evil”. Now if you remember North Korea ended in a stalemate and you lost Vietnam! However how you did ‘defeat’ the only other superpower (U.S.S.R.) but this was NOT by military means but by having more global friends to trade with! Europe played a huge part in this as it’s richness in infrastructure (not necessarly money as a lot of them had built up an American debt in economic terms during and after the war even though some of these where written off!) however the “iron curtain” was drawn and the west of Europe openly traded it’s knowledge with the U.S.A. and isolated the U.S.S.R. and if you look anywhere in the globe the biggest markets are USA Europe and Japan , this squeezed the U.S.S.R. out as it couldn’t trade as freely with these!

Also please show a little humility! Yes U.S.A, right now is the most powerful country on the planet by a long way! Yet remember your roots!! You (Belderan) seem like an intelligent person and even touched on the Ottoman empire as being one of the biggest in history! This is not my strong point but I believe that the 19th century British empire was the biggest ever , then even more surprisingly (and in my opinion a lot more impressive) was the 13/14th century Mongol empire that was the second biggest !! Now if you look at things you begin to realise that the U.S.A. WILL fall from grace! Just like all the rest , I reckon China is poised to become the next superpower and then become the dominant political force in the world (in the long term)! The USA was set up by Europeans who had started the industrial revolution and then found a “new” country with a huge amount of these new and valued resources , so it is no surprise that this huge new country became the worlds most powerful , but that is always a temporary thing! The “amazing” political system that is capitalism has already set up a huge amount of factories outside the U.S.A. and Europe as it is more “efficient” to set up theses factories in a low cost country like China. Already there are protests about countries like china “Stealing” our jobs and although my future now looks bleak it does make me laugh! If you look at the capitalist form of democracy, just like communism it is essentially flawed and inevitably a country which itself has a flawed system of human rights will exploit these flaws and get all the business which then weakens the other countries !

Anyhow back to your post!

I really reckon that the sep 11 event has driven a lot of Americans completely mental!

I say this with no disrespect to the 3,000 or so who died . This is a tragic event for the relevant friends and family !!!. However ANY death is a tragic event for those who loved the person, especially when that life is cut artificially short!

However if you keep it in perspective ! (in this case the ‘!’ is not to emphasis the point but to emphasise the point at how hard it is to remain unbiased) you’ll realise that the U.S.A. has KILLED A LOT MORE INNOCENTS than 3,000 in it’s unjustified wars ! For these people it was also a HUGE loss but I see a little press about their feelings! (I’m talking about 100% innocent here!)


Also the fact that not to long ago the U.S.A. was supporting Sadam , in fact if what I heard is true they give him HUGE loans to buy weapons of them which included 20 different strains of Anthrax and some 300 tons of Sarin nerve gas! . They now complain because he has Anthrax and nerve gas ?? I Mean it seems pretty 2 faced to sell him these things for use against Iran but then when the war is over to start a war about them?

I also found your thread worrying in the link with some form of the “old Arab world” being the enemy Again REMEMBER YOUR ROOTS !

Look at where the predominant religion of the U.S.A. came from!!! It’s actually pretty much the same place as Muslims / Islam i.e. Christianity comes from the Middle East!!!

Also the USA stance is going to always draw a huge amount of resentment! You’re in a huge minority and have it dead lucky , just because the only people you “generally” talk to are also extremely lucky it is easy to lose sight of this! Something like 95% of the worlds wealth is controlled by 5% of the worlds population!! Look at your own countries wealth and your statistic in the global population, factor in the fact that no one (well if they do I’ve never heard it!) decides before they’re born who they want to be! i.e. let me see I’ll be an average American who has a comfortably rich life and access to amazing things like the internet , I don’t want to be some average Asian scraping it together just for a living !

This fact rightly or wrongly will breed resentment , this is a fact! However attempting to crush this basic human instinct (it was been proven that even children have an innate sense of fairness) with an iron fist will only make things worse! I.E. the people who are resentful will become even more resentful and most dangerously desperate and willing to become martyrs more easily!

Also any form of ethnic cleansing (which is a bit to close to your post for comfort) Doesn’t exactly win you friends!

slothman
03-02-2003, 04:11 AM
Yes I read the first part but it kind of just ran together after that. Where is the actual part that justifies the "War on Iraq" (copyright 2002, Bush jr)? Plus what is it about? It doesn't seem to say anything about anything except a few mentions of Iraq, Islam, and Arab states.

ShyGuy0824
03-02-2003, 04:40 AM
Jimmy the Saint... I'm not going to go into namecalling, or even insulting at all of Europe to make my point. I'll simply disprove your argument.

1. "I’m beginning to believe that it is in fact the USA that is the “War like” race ..."

First of all, simply put, the USA is far from a warlike race, in perspective. As more of an economical superpower than military, no more Americans value huge militaries than Europe does. However, because of this economic power, other countries and people feel insecure about their own countries, and like hating the Teacher's pet, much of the world has an 'anti-american sentiment'.

In no way am I saying that America's past isn't perfect, however there are a few things to remember. Communism isn't a culture, at least it wasn't when implemented. Not only was communism a totalitarian government in which people would 'disappear' daily, but the liberty to pursue a goal and do your own work was lost. This was why many of the intellectuals of the time were killed, as they were most likely to lose loyalty with the corrupt government. While you say economic restrictions were limited by lack of trade, (while the U.S.S.R. had ample resources and markets as a superpower), the real reason for this was the fact that management was not good at all, as people would be given simple jobs, while supplies were low and starved. The equal but really poor unless you're in the government standard wasn't worth the interest of the people.

Next, U.S. as a warlike society. The U.S. had been primarily isolationist until the second World War, in which case as the clear leader in the world, the U.S. adopted a policy in which it became the caretaker of interests of people. While this was not implemented perfectly, as in communism, the U.S., unlike some European countries, has not attempted to take over or colonize another country since 1910 (Phillipines, Cuba, Puerto Rico)

I fail to see the coherence in any argument as to the staying power of the U.S. as the world leader as having to do with the current situation. Only one quote "The USA was set up by Europeans who had started the industrial revolution and then found a “new” country with a huge amount of these new and valued resources , so it is no surprise that this huge new country became the worlds most powerful , but that is always a temporary thing", simply is laughable as the Industrial Revolution did not take place until after the Civil War! The fact that the USA was colonized by Europeans is true, however they were not looking for natural resources when they arrived (there were gold hunters in virginia on business trips of a few years), however the American colony was founded largely by the British Puritans who were unsatisfied with the abusive power of the King in controlling the Anglican church and persecuting their group...

2. "However if you keep it in perspective ! (in this case the ‘!’ is not to emphasis the point but to emphasise the point at how hard it is to remain unbiased) you’ll realise that the U.S.A. has KILLED A LOT MORE INNOCENTS than 3,000 in it’s unjustified wars ! For these people it was also a HUGE loss but I see a little press about their feelings! (I’m talking about 100% innocent here!) "

A few things here. Skepticism about the 100% innocence is not only uncalled for, but inappropriate as well. I dare you to name one day in which more than 3000 innocent were killed by U.S. soldiers in their innocence. Not only this, but Americans have admitted their wrongdoings in wrongdoings such as My Lai, although not as much press was received because the magnitude of these problems were not nearly as appalling as unarmed, unaware, targets that were the towers and pentagon.


3.)
"Also the fact that not to long ago the U.S.A. was supporting Sadam , in fact if what I heard is true they give him HUGE loans to buy weapons of them which included 20 different strains of Anthrax and some 300 tons of Sarin nerve gas! . They now complain because he has Anthrax and nerve gas ?? I Mean it seems pretty 2 faced to sell him these things for use against Iran but then when the war is over to start a war about them?"

Okay, the simple facts are this. In 1983-4, the Reagan administration sought to make amends with the Iraqi government, which was involved in a war with the Iranians at the time. While the U.S. was beginning to see hints of biological weapons being used, this was mainly ignored. To strengthen negotiations, the U.S. agreed to sell helicopters and arms to Iraq, however no agreement about biological weapons took place. The weapons that are classified as 'of mass destruction' were not what we sold them.

4.) "Look at where the predominant religion of the U.S.A. came from!!! It’s actually pretty much the same place as Muslims / Islam i.e. Christianity comes from the Middle East!!!"

No, no, you see the problem that the article is speaking of is not religion. For one thing, the Americans are not opposed to religion, however it is the fundamentalist attitude of the wahabbis sect, who believe that it is holy to invoke war upon another civilization, that America is worried about. This belief, which sprung up in the late 70's, is not only conducive to sheltering terrorist organizations, but dangerous to the safety of any civillian of any country. It is likely that the belief of the terrorists involved in 9/11 shared these beliefs, already frowned upon by muslim leaders. 9/11 is not the issue, however the possibility of a new one is, and therefore to ensure world peace some way of eliminating this 'warlike tribe' as you so aptly put it, is needed, although military response may not be the best way of doing so.

5.)"Also the USA stance is going to always draw a huge amount of resentment! You’re in a huge minority and have it dead lucky , just because the only people you “generally” talk to are also extremely lucky it is easy to lose sight of this! Something like 95% of the worlds wealth is controlled by 5%"

What, so you hate the U.S. because we're rich and won't give you any more money. There are governmental agencies, largely supported by the U.S., (International bank, look it up), where support is given. And yes, just because there is a higher standard of living in America doesn't mean there's a need to hate us. There are high and low standards in your own country, so this argument is null.

6.) "Also any form of ethnic cleansing (which is a bit to close to your post for comfort) Doesn’t exactly win you friends!"

Ethnic cleansing is the wiping out of a culture and people belonging to that culture. America doesn't wish to 'bomb the iraqis', but simply to change the view that we are the bad guy and attitude that war is good. You europeans, of all people should know how bad war is. The french, who have an army of 8, and the rest, who were GIVEN our own money after WW2 in the Marshall plan. Europe didn't support the US as much as it was supported by us.


In conclusion, European anti-American attitudes are due to jealousy of American wealth and power, as well as fear of the abuse of this power. The Iraq situation is justified in that the place is a haven for potential terrorists, and at the least, extremist anti-american attitudes should be dealt with before, not after they fly more planes into our buildings. I sincerely doubt you'd have the same stance if disgruntled Indians blamed the English for messing up their country (which by the way was the slaughter of innocents) and began to plan massive attacks on the population. While war may not be the best solution to the situation, a response is needed in stabilizing the region for not only the security of the U.S., but the world.


Dumb liberal European

Beldaran
03-02-2003, 06:00 AM
We feel the need to define our enemy because our enemy is gasing, torturing, abusing, raping, slaughtering, and bombing everone it views as "sinful".

Simply put, the United States and Britain are the only two countries in the world right now willing to fight the people who would otherwise have chaos and death be the standard of living.

I don't mind that you disagree with our war, but I'd appreciate it if you would go to Syria and try and explain to the hardline muslims that you really aren't evil. I'm sure they'll realize it was all just a big misunderstanding and refrain from running over you with a tank.

slothman
03-02-2003, 06:12 AM
We're willing to fight China and several South American countries! When did this happen?

Beldaran
03-02-2003, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by slothman
We're willing to fight China and several South American countries! When did this happen?

We're not perfect and we can't fight everyone. But China, North Korea, and all those other waste of space countries should be conquered and forced to live under the cruel fist of freedom and happiness.

TheGeepster
03-02-2003, 07:08 AM
Bush has gone to great lengths to point out that this is a war against terror and oppression. I think Beldaran's article did an excellent job of pointing out how difficult it is to define accurately the true enemy. And it also does a good job of demonstrating that if you only look at one piece of the picture, you may miss the true meaning behind it.

I would also like to point out that the Islamic faith is the only major faith in the world today that has instructions on the way to spread its faith by military action. This is not to say that all Muslims are this way, because a great number of them are as freedom-loving and peace-loving as any of us. But there is a sizable part of the Muslim population that does follow a war-like "by-any-means-necessary" method of evangelism, including terrorism. There are Islamic nations that are peaceful and good to its people. There are also Islamic nations that that oppressive and warlike. Right now, one of the worst of these nations is the inflammatory nation of Iraq, which has only cooperated as much as it thinks is necessary to stave off the inevitable. (Note: There are also non-Islamic nations who are oppressive of their peoples. They are not exempt from action either. This isn't about Islam so much as it is about anti-liberty and oppression.)

Do I think America will always be the top dog? No. Because when our vigilence and dependence on the foundation upon which we were built fades, so too, we shall fade. But I will support the USA and it's concept of God-given liberty so long as I shall live. I shall speak up when I think she's made a mistake, because without a diligent people, the US is nothing. Without relying upon the God which has blessed us so, we are nothing. And the path is often difficult and riddled with obstacles.

3-Headed Monkey
03-02-2003, 01:51 PM
Well, I AM too lazy to read this... but I will say that I think that the US should go to war with Iraq as long as they don't agree to the treaty that they signed. Although, I'm not really going to argue for two reasons. 1. There are people already doing this on my side. 2. You're right that as long as I'm too lazy to read this, I shouldn't be debating on this topic.

So, ta-ta until I actually read it...

Jemsee
03-04-2003, 12:58 PM
This has been in my mail for some time and found it interesting.
After reading all the stuff above about how our enemy is a culture and that they're Arab and Muslim, but not every Arab and Muslim and "to discuss it in these terms is to cross the boundaries of political correctness." I thought I would post this also.
Why? Because history speaks for itself. Right or wrong the article (posted by Beldaran) does give some reason for the attacks rather than just jealousy. As you can see by the following "TEST" history and facts don't lie. This "Arab culture" has been in the worlds face for a long time.
It makes one wonder why, doesn't it?

----------------------------------

Subject: New World Test

> Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following Multiple-choice test. Events are actual cuts from past history. They actually happened! Do you remember?
>
> 1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
> a. Olga Corbett
> b. Sitting Bull
> c. Arnold Schwartzeneger
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 2. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
> a. Lost Norwegians
> b. Elvis
> c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 3. During the 1980s a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
> a. John Dillinger
> b. The King of Sweden
> c. The Boy Scouts
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
>4. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
> a. A pizza delivery boy
> b. Pee Wee Herman
> c. Geraldo Rivera
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
> American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
> a. The Smurfs
> b. Davy Jones
> c. The Little Mermaid
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 6. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
> a. Captain Kid
> b. Charles Lindbergh
> c. Mother Teresa
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 7. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
> a. Scooby Doo
> b. The Tooth Fairy
> c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
> a. Richard Simmons
> b. Grandma Moses
> c. Michael Jordan
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 9. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
> a. Mr. Rogers (~ME~ may he rest in peace)
> b. Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
> c. The World Wrestling Federation
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 10. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Center and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted to a crash by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:
> a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
> b. The Supreme Court of Florida
> c. Mr. Bean
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 11. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
> a. Enron
> b. The Lutheran Church
> c. The NFL
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
> a. Bonny and Clyde
> b. Captain Kangaroo
> c. Billy Graham
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?
>
> So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning former Governors. Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria Allreds and other dunderheaded attorneys, along with Federal Justices who want to thwart common sense, feel doubly ashamed of themselves. As the writer of the award-winning story Forest Gump so aptly put it,
> "Stupid is as stupid does!"<